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Thread: SCRs? what is a girl to do?!

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    New Member magentaseas is an unknown quantity at this point magentaseas's Avatar
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    SCRs? what is a girl to do?!

    Hi
    Ive started thinking about getting a SCR and just dont know where to start, what is a girl to do?!

    Why a SCR?
    I have a depth restriction and can go no deeper than 40m (I have a Pacemaker). SCRs have a similar restriction. A CCR would be a waste on the sort of diving I do and I just cant afford one.

    I want to be able to dive longer rather than deeper and have even considered getting twin 10's (dont want twin 12's as I mainly do RIB diving).
    A SCR really appeals to me and I'll also be on Nitrox, which is even better.

    I dont know anyone who has a SCR, I may find that theyre not for me but I have tried a CCR in the pool and enjoyed it, but like the simpler idea of a SCR.

    Any thoughts? Advice?
    What does a new SCR cost? Where would I go.
    Im a BSAC diver, is it worth doing their new Rebreather course or would i be better off going to another agency that has more experience in rebreathers.

    Cheers
    Sharon

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    RBW Founder schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford's Avatar
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    Hi Sharon,

    forgive me if I bounce around all over the place in my thoughts, I am sure some of the other board members will are more learned than me will contribute.

    If you do decide to go doen the SCR route you have a few options.

    Drager Ray



    Nice small unit (we have one down Wraysbury lake - if you come down I will get you a try dive on it and on the Meg too if you like) - to be honest probably not the best choice as you can not change the jets and off the top of my head max depth is about 20 metres. Price abotu £750 second hand and about £1500 new if I recall correctly.

    Drager Dolphin



    Lovely unit, ultra simple I have about 35 hours on it or so and am a fan. Expect to pay about £1000 to £1500 second hand about £2500 new and on top of that any where from £400 to £1000 to either monitor the PPo2 or get an integrated deco computer. typical BSAC configuration is to use a 10l cylinder with a H valve which will give you plenty of bailout in a self contained unit. Also can be converted to closed circuit.



    Your other option which is brand new on the market is

    Submatix 100ST



    This unit is about £2600 see http://www.abyssuk.com/products/prod...bcatcode=SMSCR afraid I dont know a lot about this but you can change mixes during the dive.

    Azimuth

    Afraid I again dont really know a lot about this one. Other than you can change mixes between 2 cylinders during the dive and again its about £2500 +

    Others

    Other units such as EDO or RB80 - have a look in our articles section for a review. These units probably not for you as are designed to work at depth with trimix etc.

    Other Options

    Sport Kiss



    You can pick one of these up for the same price (maybe cheaper) than a new SCR! PM decoweenie who is the best bet for you with these (Phi drop Sharon a PM)

    They have numerous advantages IMHO, they are Kisses recreational CCR and are certed to 45ish metres althouh have gone a lot deeper (about 100ish isnt it Phi?).

    They also dont have a bunch of electronics or a solenoid and work via a constant mass flow valve to inject O2 at a rate similiar to you metabolising it, with a manual add valve for your tweaks (monitored via built in PPO2 monitors).

    With a CCR you will never have to worry about your dive plans being changed and so your mix and jets being wrong, they are also very simple and are a manual CCR with electronics included in the price to monitor your PPO2. There is a review here and information on diving it here.

    With this unit you will really be maxing your PPo2 on every section of your dive not just your deepest part, you will stay out of deco longer and when in deco your deco will be shorter. The unit will also last for a weekends diving with out being touched!

    Training

    Go for some one that actually dives the unit that you buy and has a lot of hours on it diving the type of profiles you want to dive....I would say thats more important than whether they are BSAC or another agency...

    Stuart

    PS Apologies to those SCR fans I have offended - these are just my opinions and I am a nerd!

  3. #3
    Acme Serpentine Lubricant lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland has a reputation beyond repute lizardland's Avatar
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    The Draeger Dolphins are hard to beat, always plenty of them on E-Bay where they go for a bit over a grand. Easy to get spares and consumables too and a wide network of dealers round the world. Lots of aftermarket mods available as well. Very well built (essential on a RIB),
    most of my CCR is built from Draeger parts, excellent quality, and simple if you follow the rules. Personally, I'd stick some form of oxygen monitoring on it.

    The Ray is limited in depth and I wouldn't bother with it.

    If you're buying new then I don't imagine there is a huge difference between a Dolphin and Sport Kiss (worth considering even though you say you don't want CCR).

    As for training, it all comes down to instructor rather than agency.

    Just my tuppence worth.

  4. #4
    Administrator ROB DAVIE has a spectacular aura about ROB DAVIE has a spectacular aura about ROB DAVIE has a spectacular aura about ROB DAVIE has a spectacular aura about ROB DAVIE has a spectacular aura about ROB DAVIE has a spectacular aura about ROB DAVIE's Avatar
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    Which SCR.......?

    Sharon,

    Just as a note to add to what Stuart said, the Draeger Ray is no longer produced. The Submatix unit pictured is reported to be available, but does not seem to be offered on the market yet in any worthwhile amount.

    There are a fair amount of Draeger Dolphins available used, as people move up to CCR's, and the price is quite reasonable (usually).

    The Sport KISS is small, robust, would fit your requirements, and by all report (I don't have one, myself.) is a really great diving unit. As noted by Stuart, it will adjust to your dive profile as it changes. As noted by the Boy's from Lizardland, it is a rugged unit.

    Just for your info, that's my PPO2's worth.

    Rob Davie

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE
    The Submatix unit pictured is reported to be available, but does not seem to be offered on the market yet in any worthwhile amount.
    Not in the USA I suspect but there are instructors and distribution in the UK.
    It's German I think.

    I'm no great fan of SCRs but they are hugely cheaper than the CCRs I do like so they have their place. I've never dived a Sub' but I must declare a slight interest as it is a friend who distributes them in the UK.

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    RBW Member decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie has a reputation beyond repute decoweenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schford
    PM decoweenie who is the best bet for you with these (Phi drop Sharon a PM)

    They have numerous advantages IMHO, they are Kisses recreational CCR and are certed to 45ish metres althouh have gone a lot deeper (about 100ish isnt it Phi?).
    I will be going to Sharm in the morning and be there until June 2. I will check email, but probably not daily so if you (Sharon) needs any detail info about the KISS units, please email me at (decoweenie [AT] yahoo.com).

    Officially, they are "rated" (whatever that means) by the manufacturer to 45m, but some people have taken them much deeper without the consent of Jetsam. I don't want to discuss about how deep these units could be dived since all I heard were how dumb I was from strangers whom I have never met...

  7. #7
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    JJ Hybrid

    Inspo, Hammer Head, KISS rEvo

    Another vote for the sport KISS

    Its the right price its easy to transport and its much better than a SCR. Fixed PP02 diving on Nitrox using a SCR seems pointless to me. A dynamic set point PPo2 in a CCR loop like the KISS will minimise your deco obligation and maximise your bottom time.

    ATB

    Mark Chase

  8. #8
    Stefan Besier caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7's Avatar
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    PRISM Topaz & Sport KISS

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    Quote Originally Posted by magentaseas
    Any thoughts?
    A few. :D

    Dräger Ray
    So far I haven't seen an official announcement by either Dräger or Aqualung (the distributor) that the Ray is out of production, but rumour has it and I wouldn't be suprised.

    The Ray is the only unit listed by Stuart with over the shoulder counterlungs and has reportedly the best WOB.

    The Ray comes standard with valving for 50% Nitrox, and is therefor limited to 20 meters. The valve is part of the bypass assembly, and can only be changed in its entirety. They are available for 32% and 40%, so max. depth limit is the same as for the other nitrox SCRs. Disadvantage is that they retail for over 200 Euros each.

    The P-plug for a pO2 meter is at the bottom of the scrubber cannister, the worst place since water tends to collect there.

    The BCD and counterlungs are all one item, and available only in on size. Unlike what Dräger claims it will not fit all ... on me it looks like an ugly sports bra, something no one wants see.


    Dräger Dolphin
    The Dolphin is to SCR what the Buddy is to CCR: Less than perfect but quite the success. It's strenght is in numbers, easily available units, spares, training and custom parts.

    Unlike the Ray, the Dolphin comes with orifices that are attached to the bypass, cost around 80 Euros each, and 40%, 50% and 60% are stock. 32% is an option.

    The case is pretty flimsy and prone to break, especially with heavy tanks attached.

    The orifices generate sonic flow to deliver the gas. To do so the need to be perfectly clean, and the first stage needs a higher than usual IP. That doesn't allow OC bailout to be attached to it. So either you need the separate bailout tanks that Dräger wants you to use, or modify the unit (like Stuart said, with an H valve on the tank).

    The Dolphin uses a lot of propriatory hardware, so you're limited to use Dräger parts, adapters or modify the unit.

    Like most rebreather that come with them, the stock BC is pretty crappy.

    The external tank and small overall size make it a good unit to travel with.
    Just dn't forget those adapters.


    OMG Azimuth
    The Azimuth is a pretty nice unit, the finish (especially these days) is quite a bit better than the Drägers.

    It uses an adjustable needle valve instead of fixed orifices, so you can choose any Nitrox mix between 32% (which is good to 40 msw) and I believe 60%.

    It's the only SCR here that doesn't have an ADV. When you decent you need to manually add gas to compensate for ambient pressure. The button for that is part of the 'dosing group'.

    The dosing group allows you to route the (bailout) gas from the second cylinder into the loop, such preserving gas. The Azimuth is ment to use only one mix, and has only one adjustable valve. Two mixes can be used, for example 32% for depth and 50% for shallow/deco, but you won't get the benefit of the lower 50% flow rate.

    Most all the hardware is off the shelves, much of it from Mares. OC bailout is included (one of the 4 ltr cylinders, which is quite reasonable for recreational profiles).

    It has a radial scrubber that is considerably nicer than the axial Drägers.

    The breathing bags are semi-clear, allowing visual check of moisture/water.

    The Azimuth has a little fold out stand, so it can stand upright on its own.

    The DSV is very well designed and easy to use with one hand.

    The Azimuth has a nice, big, solid metal handle on top which also helps balance the rig UW.

    The same handle, the lovely metal cannister and the two 4 ltr steel tanks make this the biggest and heaviest of the SCRs here. Not much of a travel unit.


    Submatix ST100
    The ST100 is one of three Submatix models available and has CE. It uses a single mix which is carried in two 2 ltr steel tanks.
    The STX has two dosing units and a switch that allows to use two different mixes and get the most out of them. Finally there is a SM model that is self-mixing, using O2 and diluent much like other manual CCR designs. Am not sure if either of those have CE and are supported by training agencies.

    The ST100 comes with 32%, 40%, 50% and 80% orifices standard.

    It has an ADV (as do the Drägers), adding gas on decent.

    Unique are the 'coaxial' breathing bags', the exhale bag is inside the inhalation bag which is supposed to reduce WOB. Reportedly it works pretty well. (The RB80, EDO-04, Tourrill et al a small exhalation bellows inside the larger inhalation bellow - just mention it so Phi won't jump me ;) )

    The breathing bags are clear, making it easy to visually check for water and dirt.

    Cleaning and drying them reportedly isn't as easy as independent bags.

    The 1.8 kg axial scrubber (3 hrs) also is transparent, allowing visual check between dives, probably UW by buddy, too. Nice feature.

    The unit weights 14kg ready to dive (size is 64cm H x 42cm W x 29cm D)

    OC bailout and BCD are included.


    Jetsam Sport Kiss
    Lots of info available, have a read in the library. I like it better than any of the SCRs, even for recreational diving (for which it is designed in the first place!).


    Passive Addition SCRs
    like the RB80, EDO-04 and Tourril, among others.

    Designed for deep cave penetration and very good at it. Limited appeal for recreational diving either by tight restrictions, high unit and training price (RB-80), complete lack of training and certification and testing (the rest), rather large size and high weight (all of them).

    Respiratory Minute Volume keyed (adds and dumps gas per breath, rather than "controlled leak" the others use) is more gas efficient and provides more stable fO2 in loop.

    Allows any nitrox or trimix to be used much like OC, optional gas blocks allow as many to be plugged in as you care to carry (or stage).

    Bellows counterlungs with automatic gas/water dump is simply brilliant.

    Any of them are a lot more manly than the Dräger Bra.

    Cheers

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    PRISM Topaz & Sport KISS

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    Quote Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE
    The Submatix unit pictured is reported to be available, but does not seem to be offered on the market yet in any worthwhile amount.
    You gotta broaden your horizon past the Texas state line and US borders, especially when the request for information comes from abroad.

    The Submatix is in production in Germany and sold in Europe, with CE and training agency support. Just not from the agency that supports all rebreathers. ;)

  10. #10
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    PRISM Topaz & Sport KISS

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    Quote Originally Posted by magentaseas
    what is a girl to do?!
    My recommendation ... ... first a bit of research as to the pros and cons of the manual controlled Sport Kiss versus the cmf SCRs. Then narrow it down to the unit or units. Finally have an intro on it (or them) to get a better idea if it is what you want and need.

    Exchanged some good e-mails with a nice chap from Abyss, so if you're intrested in tha Submatix send me a PM and I'll give you his contact info. ;)

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