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Thread: Mk VI fatality-Canada

  1. #41
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post

    Then lets look at training issues.

    Training Syllabus 1:

    Cells should be changed once every 12 months. The unit should be calibrated before every dive and if there is a problem with the cells the unit will inform you. Should a cell fail during a dive the unit will advise you to bailout to open circuit and end the dive immediately.


    Training Syllabus 2:

    Cells are the weakest link in the construction of any CCR system. Cells should be replaced in rotation preferably using cells of a different production date number to avoid batch failure issues.

    New cells should be soaked in 02 for at least an hour prior to installation into the unit and first calibration as it can take a while for the cell to wake up

    Cells should be checked for millivolt output in air and 02 to ensure linearity within acceptable range

    Before calibration the unit should always be tested in air and pure 02 to ensure cells have not dropped significantly out of range as this will indicate a possible cell error or a connection error.

    You should never calibrate over a cell that falls significantly out of range without first identifying the reason why

    Cells should be checked regularly during a dive by spiking to ensure they can read over set point.


    etc etc


    Both divers have got a certificate to dive their respective units but only one of them has received proper training.


    ATB

    Mark
    This is a perfect example where you show the complete lack of knowledge of the training involved with the MkVI. You assume that we don't talk and discuss this during training.

    It also shows that you have not fully understood how the MkVI operates. But I guess that is self inflicted. Yet, you are eagerly dismissing both the unit and the training around it.

  2. #42
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBrown  View Original Post
    Trained tech divers (you know - the right sort of people for RBW members)have died on tech CCR's by not turning on their gas, ignoring alarms, diving them broken and diving them knowingly unfit.

    Whats the difference?
    MKVI is marketed to recreational divers who might just do a handful of 30-60 ft dives per year. You know, the kind of diving that is pretty easy and relatively safe on a single tank OC rig. Some of these people likely don't dive often enough, or don't possess the mindset to run a complex machine. You see these kind of people on dive boats in holiday destinations. They forget how to assemble their gear, or even how to work a cam-strap on their BCD. Certainly not all MKVI divers fit this description, but certainly some do. After all, that's the crowd this machine is being marketed to.

    The "trained tech divers" are arguably using their rebreathers to do more complex dives that are beyond what can safely be done on a single tank. The rebreather offers them advantages, and they tend to dive more, and take care while running their machines. They are not the type of people who tend dive infrequently and forget how to assemble gear (at least I'd hope not).

    Yes, your point is well-taken that "tech divers" can screw up just like recreational divers and small mistakes on a rebreather can easily result in death. But then why add all that complexity for a really simple dive? Why push a complex machine onto infrequent holiday divers and tell them how simple and fail safe it is?

    The wreck in question in this accident, the Daryaw, is one I dive frequently. My wife, who is an infrequent holiday diver, dives it a couple times per year, either on a single or double tank OC setup. Her first couple dives on it were a little scary for her because of the strong current, the dark, the swim-through under the hull, etc, but she got over that really quickly and it's now her FAVOURITE local site. I can't imagine someone like her diving a rebreather. All that added complexity for such a simple dive. It really makes me sad that someone died on such a simple wreck.

    I have no idea if the MKVI contributed to this accident, but if it did, it's a real shame for such a simple dive.
    I also have no problem if someone absolutely wants a rebreather for only recreational dives. It seems a little silly to me, but it's their choice and they must weight the risk vs rewards of their dive equipment.
    I just really wish the marketing were a little more honest and didn't actually seek out recreational divers.

    Here's a slogan for you:
    "The MKVI: making simple dives more complex"

  3. #43
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    This is a perfect example where you show the complete lack of knowledge of the training involved with the MkVI. You assume that we don't talk and discuss this during training.

    It also shows that you have not fully understood how the MkVI operates. But I guess that is self inflicted. Yet, you are eagerly dismissing both the unit and the training around it.



    Tell me what I don't understand about how the MkV1 operates?

    Please don't mention the self calibrating and self checking cell system because its a perfect example of the divers reliance on the machine to do it for him with no prior understanding of what really going on. I have read the blurb on it but i still fail to see how you can do a point injection in a cell chamber and allow enough time for the reaction to settle and gain an accurate assessment of cell health. If you did this too often on a dive it would have significant impact on the loop PP02. I believe the Poseidon system works on a much more basic level than it would have us believe.


    If the diver can not bypass the system and manually spike the PP02 or flush the diluent, then the dive is just blindly reliant on the electronics.


    Tell me how any of the issues i have raised with teaching basic cell understanding are managed on the Poseidon.

    I have seen the unit taken it apart discussed it and read the manual. My observations are based on 9 years CCR diving experience over five different units and over 1000 hours underwater. However, I am totally open to an experienced user / instructor explaining logically to me why my beliefs are wrong.

    Come up with some specific example otherwise your just throwing a blanket of crap over my comments and hoping the smell deflects from the truth.


    Then explain to me how a MKV1 warns the diver the scrubber is missing because a unit that claims

    displays all you need to know about consumables management

    Must surely be able to warn the diver as after all the scrubber is a consumable isn't it?

    And of course if there was a problem with a missing scrubber

    If things are not going correctly for whatever reason, the MKVI has audible, tactile, and visual warning systems to get your attention


    So a missing or burnt out scrubber is surely covered under the term "for what ever reason"



    Yes of course the diver screwed up but the diver has been trained that his machine will take care of him. And it didn't.


    ATB

    mark
    Last edited by Mark Chase; 25th July 2013 at 14:54.

  4. #44
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Mark, there's nothing in the training that follows the issues you have raised. There's no training that the unit will check all consumables for example.

    Perhaps you are taking the marketing too literally. I was one of the top dealers in the US for Poseidon. Sold a lot of stuff. I never read any of the blurb you are quoting and I never once came across a customer that thought the unit was going to do everything. Nobody ever had any specific ideas either. It was usually as simple as "apparently the Poseidon is safer than the other rebreathers innit?" At which point I would put them straight. If they bought one, the training would put them even more right and then if they ended up on a boat with you lot they would be left in no doubt wouldn't they?

    This is all a red-herring. There isn't a rec ccr revolution yet and these numpty ill advised and poorly trained MKVI divers just don't exist in any quantity to warrant this level of debate.

    The fatalities don't show it either.
    Last edited by ChrisBrown; 25th July 2013 at 19:00.

  5. #45
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    Excellent point. So, shouldnt she be allowed to drive a car, since she doesnt know how to change the engine (or even a smaller part of it)? Lets just for simplicity say that the only thing she needs to know (besides the obvious; is a certified driver), is to turn of the engine if something feels strange.

    i didnt suggest that.

    my point is its no problem not being tech savy and not knowing all the 'gotchas' if your using a bit of kit that is very reliable and very INTRINSICALLY safe.


    if your target market are divers who dont want a tech unit, if your targeting customers with 100% safe, simple to use, just strap it on and use it' mentality these divers will tend not to be tech savy type and wont know or appreciate the gotchas and instead rely on the intrinsic safety of the kit.

    ...so it better be intrinsically safe


    (to follow the previous analogy and your reply to it: my wife would be safer driving a car which will stop itself if it detects a potentially spongy brakes.)

  6. #46
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    Can PADI mass market average joe once a year holiday diver be relied on diving OC?
    no the degree of human fallibility is a constant WHAT DOES DIFFER is the outcome of that fallibility.


    Recreational OC = only one major mistake , run out of gas

    Do that on a recreational reef dive and all you have to do is stand up

    same dive on CCR and you have potentially dozens of mistakes that could get you dead with little or no warning


    Define 'so many' compare it to the amount of diving hours on the units in total. I have said it before and say it again, humans are stupid (me included). It is dangerous to live - you can die.

    Even with training, Recreational or technical, we make decisions on how to act. We might even be aware of a problem, but decide to dive anyway, thinking we can handle it. We decide to drive our cars at 250 km/h, even though we know it is dangerous. We put on our wingsuits and try to land in a heap of cardboard boxes...etc..etc..

    im glad you agree humans are stupid
    given that how do you justify the use and marketing of a bit of kit which us is NOT justified for practical reasons yet offers a significantly more lethal outcome when humans are stupid?


    is it prudent to market a semi auto gun to kill mosquitoes instead of a fly swatter?

  7. #47
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    Complacency should not be a part of diving, but it is - we get comfortable
    glad you agree complacency is bad.

    do you think the below marketing is going to attract rb divers who are going to be more or less complacent with the unit? afterall you just a have to put it on and not worry about it - it will 'get your attention' if things are not going correctly



    you get the information you need to manage your dive without the task-loading normally associated with rebreathers.

    The main Poseidon MKVI data interface is a large format flat screen panel that displays all you need to know about consumables management – cylinder pressures, dive time, depth, oxygen level, and it incorporates a sophisticated resource algorithm that monitors all systems for you and tells you when its time to head up. If things are not going correctly for whatever reason, the MKVI has audible, tactile, and visual warning systems to get your attention, and to advise your diving partner of your status.

  8. #48
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBrown  View Original Post
    Mark, there's nothing in the training that follows the issues you have raised. There's no training that the unit will check all consumables for example.

    Perhaps you are taking the marketing too literally. I was one of the top dealers in the US for Poseidon. Sold a lot of stuff. I never read any of the blurb you are quoting and I never once came across a customer that thought the unit was going to do everything. Nobody ever had any specific ideas either. It was usually as simple as "apparently the Poseidon is safer than the other rebreathers innit?" At which point I would put them straight. If they bought one, the training would put them even more right and then if they ended up on a boat with you lot they would be left in no doubt wouldn't they?

    This is all a red-herring. There isn't a rec ccr revolution yet and these numpty ill advised and poorly trained MKVI divers just don't exist in any quantity to warrant this level of debate.

    The fatalities don't show it either.


    You never read the user manual then because its on page 5. (Edited because it a user manual not a training manual)

    along with this from their web site:

    Poseidon’s MKVI has 5 big advantages over traditional open circuit equipment: 3 hours typical dive time, Safer and easier to use, Lighter and smaller, No decompressions stops and Silent operation makes you part of the environment; not just a visitor.

    The MKVI, the first true technological breakthrough in decades, is a game*changer.



    It does warrant this level of debate in my view as such marketing is giving the wrong impression. I think this it is wrong to market a CCR in this way.

    I don't think CCR is as dangerous as some would have us believe but i do believe it needs thinking diver who needs to dive with total understanding of his unit and the skill set to analise its performance before and during a dive.

    I have picked up on this issue with training standards I experienced on ECCR on other units but the Poseidon stands out specifically because of the advertising and marketing.




    ATB

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark Chase; 26th July 2013 at 13:08.

  9. #49
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    You never read the training manual then because its on page 5.


    Mark
    Which training manual?

  10. #50
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBrown  View Original Post
    Which training manual?


    Sorry I should have said user manual not training manual.

    http://www.poseidon.com/sites/all/fi...anual_v2.5.pdf


    ATB

    Mark

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