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Thread: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

  1. #41
    New Member Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    Sure why not? Its my life
    Hi Mark,


    I can't really agree with you on the issue of cross over training. I personally think it is very valuable. But that is a debate that will always raise polarised opinions.


    The present case exemplifies the problems with "its my life" decisions that lead to loss of life. Wes made such a decision, but now its not his life that is being potentially ruined, it is the lives of those involved in making the optima rebreather.


    Simon M

  2. #42
    RBW Member PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by whynot?  View Original Post
    I think there is some confusion here on terminology; "Training" and "practice" or "instruction" should not be viewed as the same thing. The military doesn't "practice", they "train"... and are damn proficient at it. Get the point?

    Practice is what a football club does... just my 2-cents worth.
    People pay for training. You practice on your own or with buddies.


    Peter

  3. #43
    RBW Member tcascione is a jewel in the rough tcascione is a jewel in the rough tcascione is a jewel in the rough tcascione is a jewel in the rough tcascione is a jewel in the rough tcascione is a jewel in the rough tcascione is a jewel in the rough tcascione's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Meanwhile how is the trial going?

  4. #44
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Mitchell  View Original Post
    Hi Mark,


    I can't really agree with you on the issue of cross over training. I personally think it is very valuable. But that is a debate that will always raise polarised opinions.


    The present case exemplifies the problems with "its my life" decisions that lead to loss of life. Wes made such a decision, but now its not his life that is being potentially ruined, it is the lives of those involved in making the optima rebreather.


    Simon M
    Simon I am sorry but reguardless of wether or not he had training on that unit this case would still exist.

    Did Wes have any training or experiance at all on any CCR?


    I did TDI Mod1 & Mod3 Full100m trimix but since then I have looked at any CCR and thaught, 02 add? dill? ADV? cells? display? calibration? Pos /Neg, yeah got it, lets go diveing.

    The fault tree seems to have remained a constant through my ECCR Inspo Clasic, ECCR Hammer Head, MCCR KISS, Hibrid rEvo and Hibrid JJ

    You do however need to be able to strip, reasemble, set up and understand the displays. As an engineer this is simple for me, but I dont expect others to be enginears, so suport fulley the existance of training for those that need it.

    I consider my self a half way house. I know divers who have self taught on CCR and divers who have self taught and built their own CCR. Duncan springs to mind as does Dr Jerome Meer, both renowned cave divers who have done dives that I could never even contemplate.

    I feel strongly that we should be allowed such freedom of choice

    As i always say the people who built and tested those new CCR & designed the course had no training, they just had knowladge.


    Within the framework of my beleife the Wes case is open and shut. The issues he encountered are generic within CCR diveing and as an experianced CCR diver he should have had the skill set and the knowladge to manage them.

    He made a mistake or didnt have the skill set, so he died. Tragic but nothing more than death by misadventure as we say in the UK


    On the other side of the coin I have spoken out loudly about units like the Posiden where the sales litrature makes bold claims about redundancy and full automation. I can well understand how somone could perceive them as liable for a death on the basis the automation & redundancy systems didnt keep somone alive.

    I am firmly in the camp of KISS & Gordon Smith

    "This unit is capable of killing you without warning"

    stamped in big red letters on the unit

    ATB
    Last edited by Mark Chase; 19th May 2016 at 08:08.

  5. #45
    RBW Member whynot? will become famous soon enough whynot? will become famous soon enough whynot? will become famous soon enough whynot? will become famous soon enough whynot?'s Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterVICEG  View Original Post
    People pay for training. You practice on your own or with buddies.


    Peter
    Thanks for the clarification, I learned something today. So does that mean instruction is free? I didn't pay to train, I GET paid to train...

  6. #46
    RBW Member oya has a spectacular aura about oya has a spectacular aura about oya has a spectacular aura about oya has a spectacular aura about oya has a spectacular aura about oya's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Mitchell  View Original Post
    The present case exemplifies the problems with "its my life" decisions that lead to loss of life. Wes made such a decision, but now its not his life that is being potentially ruined, it is the lives of those involved in making the optima rebreather.
    Excellent logic.

    Dive Rite employs a good handful of people who could, potentially, be out of work because an ambulance chaser convinced some people trying to process grief that they could make some money.

  7. #47
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by oya  View Original Post
    Excellent logic.

    Dive Rite employs a good handful of people who could, potentially, be out of work because an ambulance chaser convinced some people trying to process grief that they could make some money.

    Agreed, its totally wrong that others should be affected in this way, but the point is the last time this happened the diver was properly trained and certified on the unit and it made no difference to the claim. We lost a valued cell manufacturer as a result and it affected us all.

    I think its wrong to suggest the reason for this suffering was his “Life choice”

    If the result of beleiving this is people like me lost our freedom to chose, is that not equally sad?

    At a rough guess bassed on a couple of years ago when I followed all this closley, 99%+ of CCR diver deaths involved divers who were properly trained to dive the unit they died on.

    ATB






    ATB

  8. #48
    RBW Member Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    While there have been numerous posts in this thread giving useful insight into issues surrounding this lawsuit, I think that the most basic or fundamental question of what use or purpose is this piece of equipment known as a Rebreather, CCR, SCR etc?

    There is a commonly held view that it should be considered a piece of Life Support Equipment and handled by customers, manufacturers, regulators and the Law, as such.

    An alternative view (one with which I agree), is that it is merely a piece of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), with some additional add-on functionality to aid in supporting or terminating life. Due to the general lack of any automatic feedback mechanism for key physiological parameters e.g blood oxygen and CO2 levels of the diver, in the loop gas management systems; rebreathers are functionally better suited to terminating rather than supporting life.

    As such, they should be more accurately described as "Euthanasia" rather than "Life Support" devices.

    None of the foregoing is intended to be disrespectful to divers who have died on rebreathers, or their friends or loved ones who have suffered or are still suffering at their loss.

    Divers face enhanced risks if they seek to place too high a regard on the capabilities of their rebreather. Equally manufacturers risk being held to a much higher standard and liability for which they are not technically responsible or financially rewarded.

    It should be beyond question that, a different mindset in the diver would apply during a dive if the diver believes they have a euthanasia device strapped to their back as opposed to a "life support device".

    As a piece of PPE, rebreathers are quite effective (putting potential extra dead-space issues to one side) and reliable in isolating a person/diver's air passageway and cardio system from an external environment. It is the loop gas Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide gas management systems where problems tend to arise for a myriad of reasons.

    People often under-estimate the importance of language in framing analysis of problems/issues and finding appropriate outcomes.

    While some may think the foregoing rather pedantic or peripheral to the main issues, I think it very important in moving rebreather diving for divers, manufactures and the general community to a safer and more sustainable future.

    I again wish to emphasize my respect to any party who has suffered as a result of a fatal or serious incident on a rebreather. My comments are not specifically directed to the Wes Skiles incident & litigation, but to the previous posts about rebreathers being "Life Support" devices. Sure they can support life, but just as easily they can end it with sad consequences for everyone involved.

    Tony Quinn
    PS
    For complete disclosure, I own an Optima CCR (manufactured by Diverite), but my comments are not directed to any manufacturer or specific incident.

  9. #49
    RBW Member oya has a spectacular aura about oya has a spectacular aura about oya has a spectacular aura about oya has a spectacular aura about oya has a spectacular aura about oya's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Q  View Original Post
    It should be beyond question that, a different mindset in the diver would apply during a dive if the diver believes they have a euthanasia device strapped to their back as opposed to a "life support device".
    I used to think that way. My original instructor trained me that way.

    I have since changed in my thinking.

    You're underwater... you can't live underwater without something to provide you with oxygen. The rebreather (like OC) provides you with oxygen.

    It is a life support device.

    It's a bit complicated, requires a great deal of discipline, concentration, and lots of practice. But it isn't trying to kill you, it's trying to keep you alive. Without discipline, concentration, and practice you might die... but statistically it won't be the rebreather's fault, it will be your own.

    If you drive drunk or fall asleep at the wheel and plow into a wall we don't consider it the car's fault. If you're texting and you step in front of a bus it isn't your phone's fault or the bus'. If you're on the international space station, you're distracted by a particularly good Mad Libs, and you flip the wrong switch, opening an airlock and getting shot out into bleak, cold, infinite space it's not because the space station failed.

    Instead of breeding safety-consciousness, I believe that to think of the rebreather as a euthanasia machine, in a way, abdicates responsibility.

  10. #50
    RBW Member Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1 has a reputation beyond repute Gobfish1's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    you flip the wrong switch, opening an airlock and getting shot out into bleak, cold, infinite space it's not because the space station failed.

    ill bet you ten pounds , some fecker will be standing up in court trying to say other wize,

    and wanting to know if that switich is military grade ,

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