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Thread: Mk vi fatality - portugal

  1. #41
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    What happened to BAIL CYLINDER, is this not also a required tool and part of the training.
    A life lost due to a missing scrubber is a tragedy that needs to be addressed with redundancy.
    My heartfelt condolences for his family and friends.
    Gabe

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    Totaly agree on the diver responsabuility angle. i personaly prefer CCR wth a PP02 display HUD BOV CMF valve and nothing else in terms of diver aids.


    Howev er if i were designing a CCR proporting to be (for want of a better description) idiot proof.

    Id put a scrubber present / not present system on it.


    I can test just about anything on a CCR but i have no idea if the scrubber is present unless I take it apart or do a significant pre breath period on the unit.

    I am not convinced about the pre breath thing. I suspect we often think its been 5 mins after just a min or two.

    How long would it take to notice a missing 0 ring for example?

    I know a diver who did a whole pool sesion with a kinked 0 ring on his inspo and didnt notice till after the dive

    ATB

    Mark
    My experience of the missing O-ring in Inspiration was that above 6 meters ok. At 28meters I started remembering how I did the assembly as I was breathing harder than I should. I bailed out and tried the loop at shallow and it was ok again.... pre breath does not tell if the inspiration O-ring is missing. Good assembly routine is important... I was thinking mine was ok.

    Jukka

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    Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Just a thought...
    In the industry i'm working in it's Quito comon to use cheap RF-ID Technology to keep track of parts.
    In such a automated unit as the MK6, would it not be a feature to also let the unit inform the user, presence of scrubber and/or current scrubber time?

    Best regards,
    Andreas

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Basic CCR mistake and really one of the simple predive checks.

    Don't think we should be accusing Poseidon of unsafe products here as the MarkVI is a great unit but they advertise their rebreather here in OZ by resellers as an open water to Rebreather CCR diver in one step almost.

    Not sure if this is a good marketing strategy as Rebreathers generally seen as Tech diving units i.e. you needed to have a completed a fairly complicated dive on OC before being considered to be trained on a CCR.

    I did SCR and OC Trimix before I started CCR, my trainer was very good in holding people back before undertaking any CCR training. It helped me a lot with learning standard procedures for CCR and also understanding the severity of things that could happen. I don't think this should be the standard path for CCR training but some real life tech dive of some sort where there are life and death choices is probably a good start and should be at least considered before undertaking a CCR course.

    My two cents

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Does anybody has any idea what happend in South Africa ? No facts at all disclosed except to be another fatality envolving a POSEIDON MK VI...

    I was just wondering...any chance of similar problem with scrubber ???

    http://mkvi.poseidon.com/downloads/A...2013-03-22.pdf

  6. #46
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by divingabe  View Original Post
    What happened to BAIL CYLINDER, is this not also a required tool and part of the training.
    I'm not saying it's not required.
    My point is...
    Earlier in the thread, it is noted that the BOV was still in position CC.
    My private guess is that this poor chap did not even realise what he was headed into and thus never switched to OC...
    If you're in the early stage of a CO2-hit and switch to OC, ohboy, that Poseidon Xstream is shoving the gas down your throat - you'll be stabilising in no time...
    Since he never switched to OC - if he should ever have realised what was happening - I guess he was already too intoxicated to flip that lever.

    I wonder where you'd stop with the controlling the diver...
    A mechanical switch that ensures you have a scrubber installed...
    What if there's no lime in there? What if it's spent? What if it's not well packed?

    I think it boils down to one basic thing:
    A technical diver is not defined by the equipment, but his mind.
    You cannot just spend a bunch of bucks and think you're ready to touch the ocean's floor.
    It's also not just about tediously following rules set by others, performing skills in highest quality.
    It's about what you know and how you apply it.

    But that's my personal take on it, and it's definitely not my intention to piss at anyone.

  7. #47
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Danyboy  View Original Post
    I think it boils down to one basic thing:
    A technical diver is not defined by the equipment, but his mind.
    You cannot just spend a bunch of bucks and think you're ready to touch the ocean's floor.
    It's also not just about tediously following rules set by others, performing skills in highest quality.
    It's about what you know and how you apply it.
    Yup.

  8. #48
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Danyboy  View Original Post

    I wonder where you'd stop with the controlling the diver...
    A mechanical switch that ensures you have a scrubber installed...
    What if there's no lime in there? What if it's spent? What if it's not well packed?
    All depends on the units philosophy in my opinion. In MKVI's case it has fully automated checklist/pre dive check, therefore claimed to be safer than other units... and then it lets you jump in with no scrubber cartridge inserted? from my knowledge you can also insert it upside down? Having a sensor checking if at least a cartridge is inserted and having it mechanically encoded to avoid having it upside down for an automated "safer and easier than OC, fail-safe" unit like the MKVI would have been the least to expect in my honest opinion.
    It is most likely part of checklist divers are given by the training agencies or even the manufacturer. But, imho Poseidon claims the unit to be fail-safe, it does a fully automated pre dive checklist, how likely is it the diver gets complacent and starts thinking i don't need a checklist cause the unit does itself and i just don't have to forget to insert the scrubber... thats when sh... starts running up the hill...

    Quote Originally Posted by Danyboy  View Original Post
    I think it boils down to one basic thing:
    A technical diver is not defined by the equipment, but his mind.
    You cannot just spend a bunch of bucks and think you're ready to touch the ocean's floor.
    It's also not just about tediously following rules set by others, performing skills in highest quality.
    It's about what you know and how you apply it.
    And that is what I am sure we all on here agree on! And why Poseidons' marketing is just wrong. Like Bruce Partridge likes to say, rebreathers don't kill divers, divers kill themselves using rebreathers. We have to accept rebreathers do involve higher risks, require more discipline, more attention, are more complex... And are not easier and safer to use than OC and can require decompression...
    Electronics might assist you but what Poseidons claims the MKVI to be gives a false impression of todays rebreather technology. Maybe in the future with different O2 sensors, CO2 sensors, with rfid tracking scrubber usage... we might get to a point where it is stupidly easy to use them, but I do think it will always involve a higher risk than OC.
    Don't get me wrong, the MKVI is a nice unit for what it is, but the image they are trying to build around and the way they are marketing it is just wrong and dangerous in my opinion.

    Cheers Christian
    Last edited by CFU; 29th April 2013 at 03:22.

  9. #49
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    And what happened to a simple 5 minute pre breathe?

    The purpose of a pre breathe isnt to "activate" the scrubber or any of that BS, its to let you know that you have a loop that can scrub CO2 and sustain life.

    This is just another unfortunate example of an involuntary suicide and nothing more.

    Fear not we will see many more........

  10. #50
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Danyboy  View Original Post

    My point is...

    I think it boils down to one basic thing:
    A technical diver is not defined by the equipment, but his mind.
    You cannot just spend a bunch of bucks and think you're ready to touch the ocean's floor.
    It's also not just about tediously following rules set by others, performing skills in highest quality.
    It's about what you know and how you apply
    +2

    There are features on the MKVI that make it "safer", but at the end of the day it is a CCR and it will KILL YOU. The real issue is Poseidon marketing it to be "safer then O/C"... Total B.S. in my book!

    If you learn from a good respectable instructor then you can minimize the risk.
    Too many divers getting into these rebreathers that have absolutely no or very little idea what they are doing!

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