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Thread: Mk vi fatality - portugal

  1. #21
    Age Quod Agis psmedo is a jewel in the rough psmedo is a jewel in the rough psmedo is a jewel in the rough psmedo is a jewel in the rough psmedo is a jewel in the rough psmedo is a jewel in the rough psmedo is a jewel in the rough psmedo's Avatar
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    CORRECTION; An insidiuos LATENT CONDICTION in the MK VI design without any resilience together with some active failures resulted in a tragedy.


    active failures and latent conditions - Pesquisa Google

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal


  3. #23
    RBW Member Diveratt is on a distinguished road Diveratt is on a distinguished road Diveratt's Avatar
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Sad story Psmedo
    Regardless of the unit being dived there were a number of factors there that could have stopped it happening. 20-20 hind sight is a gift that we all seem to have but I think there are lessons for us all here.


    1 Always assemble the unit yourself
    2 Always use a checklist
    3 Always do a pre breath.




  4. #24
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Totaly agree on the diver responsabuility angle. i personaly prefer CCR wth a PP02 display HUD BOV CMF valve and nothing else in terms of diver aids.


    Howev er if i were designing a CCR proporting to be (for want of a better description) idiot proof.

    Id put a scrubber present / not present system on it.


    I can test just about anything on a CCR but i have no idea if the scrubber is present unless I take it apart or do a significant pre breath period on the unit.

    I am not convinced about the pre breath thing. I suspect we often think its been 5 mins after just a min or two.

    How long would it take to notice a missing 0 ring for example?

    I know a diver who did a whole pool sesion with a kinked 0 ring on his inspo and didnt notice till after the dive

    ATB

    Mark

  5. #25
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by psmedo  View Original Post
    This issue is IMHO far more complex in process and in the chain of events than your simplistic example of the dive shop gas filling negligent process.

    An accident is the manifestation of a series of failures in the system ususlly refred as "a chain of events". Seldom a single cause (ie forgeting to do a check list) is THE ONLY cause. IMHO this accident reveals a very insidiuos LATENT FAILURE in the MK VI system without any resilience at all.

    Your statement "People that assume should stick with a mask and snorkel" shows a lot of arrongance and a worring GOD COMPLEX. FYI, the worst air disaster to date happened in Tenerife when two Jumbo Jets colided in the same runway. Did you know the KLM captain a senior instructor and considered to be the best instructor ASSUMEND he had a free runway for take off in the fog...

    Les presumtion and a litlle bit of humbling can show tons of respect to the lost diver and to all whom belive "it could happen to me"...I DO.

    RDGS
    I still don't understand your point. You can be the best pilot, plane mechanic,Ccr diver. The day you assume or be complacent. You take the risk of a unwanted event. When it comes to Ccr diving riding hour motercyle, whatever you fancy doing.there is no room for (IMHO far more complex in process and in the chain of events). From your OP it's seems everybody assumed he had no scrubber in the unit, so now let's look for a cause, opening up a dive shop??Unit being borrowed and not put together by him?? Task loading on the boat??
    Trying to set anchor?? Is this the issue,far more complex than my simplistic reason?? It sounds like a big time diver error. Have you ever made a big mistake??And live to talk about it?? I know I have, but I'm not going to sit here and bash any Ccr Manufacters (not saying you are).Some Manufacters are making it seem Simple to dive a ccr. It's not that simple. The only reason I mentioned gas fills as 1 example is , I have heard stories about people leaving dive-shops in Portugal without checking there gas(owners don't Care or assumed they did))how do you explain diver convulsing when all cells read normal?? I guess we assume they are reading correctly. I'm very sorry for the family and friends, but if this is the case(no scrubber) no amount of COMPLEX that you speak of should make you forget or check your scrubber.
    Turn the story all you want,it's still not going to change the facts.

  6. #26
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Im deeply sad for the diver and for his family.
    I feel its my "brother" because I must said: Ive done that ( well not exactly this one, but many other mistakes, the ones that you can die from ) been as far as a near death experiment, but have been lucky...for now
    We must all know thats easy to do sometrhing very very stupid, in fact whe all do that every day: taking your helmet for riding the bike and taking your cars' key at the same time, trying to.... well many daily examples or am I the only one?
    Does Posseidon choosed a good way to help silly mistake?
    I think yes: thats ONE good way, the way thats as been choosed for all the manufactured thing around us ... except rebreathers.
    Is it actualy perfect; obviously not, this accident is a response.
    Is it a good reason to stop going that route...personnaly I dont think so...
    Before this accident I know thats somehone dived without sorb and on this one thats was not me
    I personally dont care about everybody being able to dive with or without a rebreather, but if the question is whats the good way for that goal I deeply think its searching after the foolproof system... that will be never perfect.

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc T  View Original Post
    Im deeply sad for the diver and for his family.
    I feel its my "brother" because I must said: Ive done that ( well not exactly this one, but many other mistakes, the ones that you can die from ) been as far as a near death experiment, but have been lucky...for now
    We must all know thats easy to do sometrhing very very stupid, in fact whe all do that every day: taking your helmet for riding the bike and taking your cars' key at the same time, trying to.... well many daily examples or am I the only one?
    Does Posseidon choosed a good way to help silly mistake?
    I think yes: thats ONE good way, the way thats as been choosed for all the manufactured thing around us ... except rebreathers.
    Is it actualy perfect; obviously not, this accident is a response.
    Is it a good reason to stop going that route...personnaly I dont think so...
    Before this accident I know thats somehone dived without sorb and on this one thats was not me
    I personally dont care about everybody being able to dive with or without a rebreather, but if the question is whats the good way for that goal I deeply think its searching after the foolproof system... that will be never perfect.
    Bottom line is if you are to complacent or to busy to forget your scrubber, you should be thinking about wearther you should be diving a breather. Not saying it won't happen but it shouldn't.

  8. #28
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by psmedo  View Original Post
    Seldom a single cause (ie forgeting to do a check list) is THE ONLY cause. IMHO this accident reveals a very insidiuos LATENT FAILURE in the MK VI system without any resilience at all.
    Say what?

    Did you just put the blame on the unit?

    I will repeat once more, for clarity

    1. Assemble your unit (rental, loaner or own)
    2. Follow procedure, checklist
    3. Pre breathe

    Respectfully without pointing any fingers, this is just a tragedy.
    1. 2,8 kg of weight is missing, that is quite a lot.
    2. 5 min pre-breathe was either skipped or done partially - due to stress or complacency? Both are equally bad and should not exist in scuba diving.

    I am sorry, but I do not agree with you on this at all. learning points here are:

    1. Always assemble your unit according to a check list
    2. Always do a pre-breathe
    3. Be an aware diver, if something feels wrong, it usually because it is.

    I am sadden by the fact that two children has lost their father and that his wife/spouse has lost her husband. So with these words I will respectfully leave this thread.

  9. #29
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    T

    I am not convinced about the pre breath thing. I suspect we often think its been 5 mins after just a min or two.
    It could be timed, just like on the sentinel.

    Take the scrubber out of a MKVI and breathe on it with a pinched nose or mask on. Youll have a stonking headache after a couple of minutes and near to passing out after 5. Ive tried it

    I also forgot the scrubber lid on a pool dive once. Didnt notice on prebreathe but did after about 2 minutes underwater. Knew immediately I hadnt installed the damn lid.

  10. #30
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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    My condolences to his family.

    Plain and simple diver error

    To blame the manufacture is just anger because your friend is gone. I do not think Poseidon ever intended on someone going for a dive with no scrubber.

    Check-lists, rest, and proper mindset when it comes to CCR diving could have prevented this accident.

    I dive several RBs including the MKVI and we as instructors, drive it in to the head of our students always assemble and check your own units!

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