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Thread: Rf3

  1. #1
    An independent diver. bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso's Avatar
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    Rf3

    For those of you who missed the Rebreather Forum 3, (RF3), you really did miss out. It will more than likely be years before the next one. On the first day with the break-away groups several of the sessions were standing room only such as the lectures on Decompression Methods by Dr Doolette and the CCR Physiology presentation by Simon Mitchell was one of the most enlightening I have ever heard.

    DAN's presentation on dive fatality statistics was illuminating at worst. The causes of fatalities in most cases were just stupid. Diver's ignoring medical problems and then dying accounted for over 30% of the total number. Insufficient gas and buoyancy problems, come on now there is absolutely no reason to have those kinds of problems. Errors in judgement was a very large contributor to fatalities and incidents. BTW, equipment failures accounted for less than 1% of the fatalities. On the other hand, problems with equipment were, if memory serves me, about 30% of the total number!

    Oh and the most startling fact was that in every single fatality the diver had NO CHECKLIST! Mental checklists just don't cut it. On a personal note, my dive buddy and I have drawn up our own hard checklist for our home-mades as a result of this statistic. We have had problems over the years that could have been prevented with a hard list.
    Thank you DAN

    There is a feeling that both the manufacturers and training agencies are missing something. Several suggestions were made but no real consensus was reached other than the culture of rebreather divers must change and the use of checklists must become second nature for everyone, instructors included. The fact they may have been doing it for many years so they don't need a list sets a subliminal message to students that a mental checklist is sufficient. (Last sentence is my feeling)

    One very important action was taken between TDI, IANTD and ANDI. For the first time these agencies turned over their training records to DAN. This gives the community some more hard numbers to help make rebreather diving safer. We now know that there is about 15,000 rebreather divers doing an average of 30-35 dives per year.

    My thanks to Roz Lunn the RF3 facilitator and to all the sponsors. Now we just have to get some of the general consensus points implemented. Let's not let the rebreather community do as little as from the period from RF2 to RF3, when the problems identified at RF2 were never resolved. Failure to act may lead to government action which I think no one really wants.

    I could go on but as I am not an RF3 official, I'll let someone else contribute.

    Safe Diving,


    Dale
    Last edited by bletso; 24th May 2012 at 10:40.

  2. #2
    When In Doubt - Bail Out Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    Quote Originally Posted by bletso  View Original Post
    There is a feeling that both the manufacturers and training agencies are missing something. Several suggestions were made but no real consensus was reached other than the culture of rebreather divers must change and the use of checklists must become second nature for everyone, instructors included. The fact they may have been doing it for many years so they don't need a list sets a subliminal message to students that a mental checklist is sufficient. (Last sentence is my feeling)
    I cant post without being misinterpreted but here goes;

    I think the eCCR with more automated pre-dive check is one way to deal with some of the more advanced checks. Of course there should always be a check list and I for one was taught time and time again the importance of a check list by my instructor. He has been diving the RB in question for a very long time, but still he emphasize the importance of the check list, even though the unit does most of it with some help from the diver.

    Technology will advance and like it or not, we will have more control system in the future on most RB's. Just look at a car today. They are safer than ever. My Volvo will break for obstacles, like pedestrians and other objects that comes into the path, the newest Volvo even has an pedestrian airbag mounted just below the windshield.

    Of course, when we are discussin RB's there will be a few decades before this change. But this does not take away the Diver responsibility and mental approach.

    I cant imagine not to use a check list on other RB's where you need to do these checks manually. For me it's second nature and i never go on a dive without it.

  3. #3
    Dave Tomblin wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    Sorry but MK VI needs to have a paper checklist too

    Assembly checks
    Scrubber installed
    Mushroom valve check
    Neg pressure check
    Analyze gas
    Analyze bailout
    Opv open
    Bov in OC mode
    Begin post
    Prebreath after power up


    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    I cant post without being misinterpreted but here goes;

    I think the eCCR with more automated pre-dive check is one way to deal with some of the more advanced checks. Of course there should always be a check list and I for one was taught time and time again the importance of a check list by my instructor. He has been diving the Rebreather in question for a very long time, but still he emphasize the importance of the check list, even though the unit does most of it with some help from the diver.

    Technology will advance and like it or not, we will have more control system in the future on most Rebreather's. Just look at a car today. They are safer than ever. My Volvo will break for obstacles, like pedestrians and other objects that comes into the path, the newest Volvo even has an pedestrian airbag mounted just below the windshield.

    Of course, when we are discussin RB's there will be a few decades before this change. But this does not take away the Diver responsibility and mental approach.

    I cant imagine not to use a check list on other RB's where you need to do these checks manually. For me it's second nature and i never go on a dive without it.
    Cheers,

    Dave....

    www.wedivebc.com

  4. #4
    RBW Member Paul S is on a distinguished road Paul S is on a distinguished road Paul S's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    Quote Originally Posted by bletso  View Original Post
    BTW, equipment failures accounted for less than 1% of the fatalities. On the other hand, problems with equipment were, if memory serves me, about 30% of the total number!
    I must be misunderstanding, but those two statements appear to be contradictory.

  5. #5
    Dave Tomblin wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul S  View Original Post
    I must be misunderstanding, but those two statements appear to be contradictory.
    Problems with equipment is a polite way to say operator error.
    The operator failed to use the equipment correctly either through neglect, intention, or lack of understanding how to use it.
    Cheers,

    Dave....

    www.wedivebc.com

  6. #6
    Jürgen Mod63 is an unknown quantity at this point Mod63's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    Quote Originally Posted by bletso  View Original Post
    One very important action was taken between TDI, IANTD and ANDI. For the first time these agencies turned over their training records to DAN. This gives the community some more hard numbers to help make rebreather diving safer. We now know that there is about 15,000 rebreather divers doing an average of 30-35 dives per year.
    Dale,

    the report on the TDI web site is stating 30.000 certificatiosn. Am I right to assume that the 15.000 mentioned above are "active" rebreather divers?

    Cheers
    Jürgen

  7. #7
    An independent diver. bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    There were a lot of cross training combined that DAN weeded out. i. e. same course, same person, different agency or level The 15K is I believe the active types according to my notes. To me this still seems high from what I see in the field.

    The important thing is that the agencies got off their high horses and released the data in the first place. This has to be a positive first step to provide data to enable DAN and others to try and ferret out the root causes for rebreather incidences. IMO, this is the first step in climbing Mt Everest, but still a positive event.

    Dale

  8. #8
    An independent diver. bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    Problems with equipment is a polite way to say operator error.
    The operator failed to use the equipment correctly either through neglect, intention, or lack of understanding how to use it.
    You are absolutely correct. But the trigger events in accidents are very hard to determine.

    Dale

  9. #9
    An independent diver. bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso is just really nice bletso's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul S  View Original Post
    I must be misunderstanding, but those two statements appear to be contradictory.
    Not at all. Equipment failure, i. e. something breaks - is very different from the diver having problems with his use of the equipment, i. e. can't control his buoyancy or running out of gas. Of course problems with equipment are really operator or training deficiencies. IMO, there may be HMI (human machine interface) problem in the design of a particular unit, but that was never brought up per se.

    For example, a diver hitting the wrong button due to it being in a non-intuitive position which could be exacerbated by training or experience deficiencies.

    I really do have to learn how to do multiple quotes.

    Dale

  10. #10
    RBW Member Paul S is on a distinguished road Paul S is on a distinguished road Paul S's Avatar
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    Re: Rf3

    Thanks, I'd not appreciated the subtle change of phrasing in "equipment failure" vs "problem with equipment".

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