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Thread: Some foolish thinking going on here

  1. #1
    Supporting Member Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36's Avatar
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    Some foolish thinking going on here

    Myself and a couple of buddies recently did a rather intense cave dive. We were all diving rEvo's and using scooters. Between the 3 of us, we had 16 tanks in the water for this dive. All but 3 of them were 80's. We did a setup dive to drop off 10 of the tanks in advance. After the big dive we still had to carry out all 16 tanks at once though.

    We do not plan for a swim out, but rather tow out by another diver. We do have to use team bailout at the maximum penetration as we just can't (read as - "don't want to") carry more tanks.

    We have been progressively working up to this dive over several dives for a long time now. We have never had any failures or problems. Our Rebreather's have always worked flawlessly and bailing out has never been even close to necessary.

    I know that the very next dive is when the brown stuff may end up hitting the oscillating blades, but I am really wondering why we go through all the work of carrying BO. All of our equipment issues have been with the OC gear.

    I am starting to think that diving alpinist might not be a completely unsupportable arguement anymore. I am not sure if my balls are big enough to be able to actually dive without BO, but Sfldiver has done it more than once (even if it was just forgetfullnes, it still counts).

    My only real bailout was during my cave training class, and NO it was not a drill. I have 400+ hours on 3 different Rebreather's, but would not have considered this an option with the Dolphin or Optima. I just didn't have the trust and faith in them that I do my rEvo.

    I blame Swadiver for this train of thought. He spends more time bitching about all the bailout than he does actually diving.
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  2. #2
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsix36  View Original Post
    I just didn't have the trust and faith in them that I do my rEvo.

    that is what will get you killed.

    rEvo is a fantastic unit, but you need to extend the same level of distrust to every rebreather, ask any one who has had a real emergency and they will tell you.

    "it worked fine right up to the point" WHERE IT DIDN'T.


    However, we have this wonderful thing called free will, and if you feel the pay off is worth the risk, then have at it.
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  3. #3
    RBW Member dreamdive has disabled reputation dreamdive's Avatar
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    I don't know! Being new to caves, I always thought that one of the big advantages diving CCR vs OC cave is that we have more options - last and probably least to able to BO to OC!. If you guys don't want to haul OC BO equipment, then maybe a BO side mount CCR is an option. However, my thinking is that ESPECIALLY being far into the cave, redundancy becomes even more of an issue.

    Who wants to be in the "Oh Shit" scenario when one does not have to.

    Oh, remember the movie "sanctum"??? They did not carry any BO, either.......Are you and Jeff planning on diving with FM, too???

    Just my 1.5 cents

  4. #4
    RBW Member Paul T will become famous soon enough Paul T will become famous soon enough Paul T will become famous soon enough Paul T will become famous soon enough Paul T's Avatar
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    Ouroboros

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    Totally agree

    And your rebreather may be working ok, then YOU make a mistake

    Or someone else does something that effects you

    Or.......................

    Stay with what you know works, at least then you can bitch about all the b/o to us some more

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  6. #6
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    I say go for it.

    Just remember to let Brin know, I will be backing a trailer up to your garage the day after you die to take all of your tools and bike.

  7. #7
    RBW Member jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk has a reputation beyond repute jkaterenchuk's Avatar
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    So what is so important in this or any other Cave to potentially die? Your not finding a cure for cancer by pushing further into the cave.

    Is dying more of a PIA then dealing with the bailout?

    Find a way to make dealing with the bailout fun. Instead of the goal being to get further into the cave how about making the goal to be get further into the cave while having enough bailout. Maybe that takes 3 dive days. 1 setup, 1 push and 1 clean-up.

    John

    PS- don't screw up my favorite cave by both of you killing yourselves. They might close the site and I would not have anyone to dive with me there.

  8. #8
    Randy Thornton Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict has much to be proud of Mixaddict's Avatar
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    Don - your CCR unit will work until it doesn't! 99.9% success rate is awesome, until you hit that last .1% when it doesn't work! The only time I have ever had a real life bailout in a cave was in Eagles Nest. This was after one hour of running it SCR and then the flood was so significant that I had to bailout. By the way, without getting into a pissing match over which units are flood tolerant and which ones are not, you really need to ask yourself if you want to be the crash test dummy to see just how flood tolerant that rEvo or yours really is!

    I see literally no reasonable excuse for not carrying bailout, whether that be individual or team bailout. It's irresponsible to yourself, your friends, your family, the wider dive community, and the manufacturer of your unit. No one needs another statistic. We just want and need more safe dives completed with divers coming home and sharing their awesome experiences with the rest of us. Bailout planning and execution can be tedious for a dive like this, but as John mentioned above, nothing in that cave is worth croaking for!

    Warm regards,
    Randy

  9. #9
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    Quote Originally Posted by Mixaddict  View Original Post
    Don - your CCR unit will work until it doesn't! 99.9% success rate is awesome, until you hit that last .1% when it doesn't work! The only time I have ever had a real life bailout in a cave was in Eagles Nest. This was after one hour of running it SCR and then the flood was so significant that I had to bailout. By the way, without getting into a pissing match over which units are flood tolerant and which ones are not, you really need to ask yourself if you want to be the crash test dummy to see just how flood tolerant that rEvo or yours really is!

    I see literally no reasonable excuse for not carrying bailout, whether that be individual or team bailout. It's irresponsible to yourself, your friends, your family, the wider dive community, and the manufacturer of your unit. No one needs another statistic. We just want and need more safe dives completed with divers coming home and sharing their awesome experiences with the rest of us. Bailout planning and execution can be tedious for a dive like this, but as John mentioned above, nothing in that cave is worth croaking for!

    Warm regards,
    Randy
    Well said, thanks.

  10. #10
    Markku Diedrich Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure is a glorious beacon of light Fun Under Pressure's Avatar
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey  View Original Post
    that is what will get you killed.

    rEvo is a fantastic unit, but you need to extend the same level of distrust to every rebreather, ask any one who has had a real emergency and they will tell you.

    "it worked fine right up to the point" WHERE IT DIDN'T.


    However, we have this wonderful thing called free will, and if you feel the pay off is worth the risk, then have at it.
    Second that and as John said, when they closed the place because you are to foul to carry the tanks many divers will visit you in the hell,...

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