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Thread: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

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    RBW Member Dave1981 is an unknown quantity at this point Dave1981's Avatar
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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    Sorry but I am still not clear, you have an isolated 2nd stage bailout regulator sharing the main tank or a second tank? Does this mean you have 3 second stages in your system?
    What exactly is the concern? Manifold loss?

    Flick the dil isolator and hot swap the QC6 to drive the unit staying closed circuit.

    Complete unit failure after the LP manifold has already failed.. Plug in the spare second stage to the QC6 and go back to independent sidemount OC

    That fails also? Your team mate has enough gas for both of you OC anyway, borrow his.

    Team mates loop also fails? Now you're both on open circuit, bit of a bad day but no worries.

    Now his manifold fails also.. OK buddy breathing from a single hot swapped reg on OC sidemount.

    Next Harry Potter waltzes along and turns me into a goat.. You got me there, don't think I could buddy breathe without opposable thumbs

    Dave

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    RBW Member Paul T will become famous soon enough Paul T will become famous soon enough Paul T will become famous soon enough Paul T will become famous soon enough Paul T's Avatar
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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1981  View Original Post
    What exactly is the concern? Manifold loss?

    Flick the dil isolator and hot swap the QC6 to drive the unit staying closed circuit.

    Complete unit failure after the LP manifold has already failed.. Plug in the spare second stage to the QC6 and go back to independent sidemount OC

    That fails also? Your team mate has enough gas for both of you OC anyway, borrow his.

    Team mates loop also fails? Now you're both on open circuit, bit of a bad day but no worries.

    Now his manifold fails also.. OK buddy breathing from a single hot swapped reg on OC sidemount.

    Next Harry Potter waltzes along and turns me into a goat.. You got me there, don't think I could buddy breathe without opposable thumbs

    Dave

    Ok, I think myself and others are really trying to follow you thought process for the set up. I'm certainly not trying to be funny in any way

    I understand that the Z system has the long hose from the block and no reg (long hose) on either cyl, you use the qc6/second stage, connected to the whips, in a failure

    For me, this is where the problems come from and the MX-Z has inherited these problems

    In a manifold failure, you lose adv, bov, wing and long hose all in one, ok, you switch the whip to the dil mav, but every thing else has gone

    But why??

    One failure has wiped out your wing, your o/c bail out reg, and the long hose system, which is vital to your team diving strategy

    I'm sorry, but i see this set up as inappropriate for team diving, just too many eggs in one basket, too easy to become a liability to the team (mission)

    Have the long hose connected to the cyl reg instead, and at least problem solved

    paul

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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T  View Original Post
    Have the long hose connected to the cyl reg instead, and at least problem solved
    ... and I think it would breath better than been connected to the manifold.

  4. #24
    RBW Member Dave1981 is an unknown quantity at this point Dave1981's Avatar
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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T  View Original Post
    In a manifold failure, you lose adv, bov, wing and long hose all in one, ok, you switch the whip to the dil mav, but every thing else has gone

    Have the long hose connected to the cyl reg instead, and at least problem solved

    paul
    There is no ADV to start with on the MX-Z, sure you can plug it backmount if you like. Personally to keep the whole thing consistent I've plugged it and it will stay that way, I want the thing to dive exactly the same in back or sidemount.

    Everything else is as you say. If you need to use one of the items then a quick flick of the dil isolator will power the manifold to inlate the drysuit or wing if you need it for a second, as it's all LP a popped O-ring isn't exactly going to free flow like a burst HP manifold.

    One of the core philosophies in team diving is that on any one major failure we call the dive, so an LP manifold failure is no worse than a right post failure, and as it's LP and static I'd say less likely..

    Sorry just noticed the time and running late for some real diving, will finish this off later today.

    Dave

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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    So I've lost my train of thought on this now but..

    If you loose the manifold you turn the dive, one major failure. You still have dil, if you want to inflate you have to act accordingly to do that.

    The BOV and Long hose are out, assuming in this situation you're in the overhead and therefor must have redundant dil, so plug the spare QC into the spare dil bottle and you have a stage to donate or bail out on. You can stay on CC or OC dependant on your situation, you have enough gas anyway.

    If you can tell any difference in WOB from the longhose through the manifold you have more sensitive lungs than I do, I've been diving the Z-system for a year now.

    The thing with it is, that there is no 'eggs in one basket' situation with the manifold. I'd agree it looks that way, and initially I had the opinion that I would only use it recreationally, it suited the type of travel diving I often do. However pretty quickly after diving it, it became clear that the failures are easy to deal with and there's pretty much no way to loose all your gas. The same thing transfers across to the rebreather. I don't want my hoses from one side, I thought we were past stuffed long hoses, I don't want to fumble for bottles and try to pass one of individual sidemount style.

    What do you then do with the wing, drysuit longhose and bov? Have it all from the same tank? then you do have all your eggs in one basket. If I split it up onto a couple of tanks then how do I then loop the long hose, how do I access all my gas? Every system I've seen has less options to deal with failure and the procedures are much more convoluted.

    This is completely scaled from just adding one piece at a time to an open water single tank set up, no change in skill set, no change in procedures it's only 2 hoses to change from the Z-system to the MX-Z, so flick the bail out over and I'm exactly in the system I know. With no leaky valve or electronics sticking their fingers in I can go on/off the loop without having anything mess with me, drive it fully closed, pscr or open completely at my choice at any time.

    There's no single failure point in this system that makes you depend on the team, as say the HP manifold in backmount, and even if you loose it all you still have the team as per team diving.

  6. #26
    Dave Tomblin wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc's Avatar
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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    I am still not clear, you have 3 second stage regs including the BOV? You have 2 dil tanks and an oxygen tank? Do you have an OC reg on the oxygen like the original MC version?



    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1981  View Original Post
    So I've lost my train of thought on this now but..

    If you loose the manifold you turn the dive, one major failure. You still have dil, if you want to inflate you have to act accordingly to do that.

    The BOV and Long hose are out, assuming in this situation you're in the overhead and therefor must have redundant dil, so plug the spare QC into the spare dil bottle and you have a stage to donate or bail out on. You can stay on CC or OC dependant on your situation, you have enough gas anyway.

    If you can tell any difference in WOB from the longhose through the manifold you have more sensitive lungs than I do, I've been diving the Z-system for a year now.

    The thing with it is, that there is no 'eggs in one basket' situation with the manifold. I'd agree it looks that way, and initially I had the opinion that I would only use it recreationally, it suited the type of travel diving I often do. However pretty quickly after diving it, it became clear that the failures are easy to deal with and there's pretty much no way to loose all your gas. The same thing transfers across to the rebreather. I don't want my hoses from one side, I thought we were past stuffed long hoses, I don't want to fumble for bottles and try to pass one of individual sidemount style.

    What do you then do with the wing, drysuit longhose and bov? Have it all from the same tank? then you do have all your eggs in one basket. If I split it up onto a couple of tanks then how do I then loop the long hose, how do I access all my gas? Every system I've seen has less options to deal with failure and the procedures are much more convoluted.

    This is completely scaled from just adding one piece at a time to an open water single tank set up, no change in skill set, no change in procedures it's only 2 hoses to change from the Z-system to the MX-Z, so flick the bail out over and I'm exactly in the system I know. With no leaky valve or electronics sticking their fingers in I can go on/off the loop without having anything mess with me, drive it fully closed, pscr or open completely at my choice at any time.

    There's no single failure point in this system that makes you depend on the team, as say the HP manifold in backmount, and even if you loose it all you still have the team as per team diving.
    Cheers,

    Dave....

    www.wedivebc.com

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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T  View Original Post
    Have the long hose connected to the cyl reg instead, and at least problem solved
    So part of the team philosophy is that you have your team as a backup when it's all gone wrong for you, I want access to all of my gas for us if I have to donate. That can't work if the long hose is from one tank. This goes all the way back to the argument in backmount, indies or manifolded? I think the majority of us would agree, certainly those that dive DIR would, that the additional failure point of a high pressure valved manifold is worth the minimal extra risk of loosing all your gas in a single failure of the HP manifold in order to have the long hose donatable with the complete gas supply available to both divers.

    We train with compounding failures but plan our dives to allow us the worst possible single failure at any given point in the dive. For a z-manifold failure to be unacceptable in team diving, then the manifold would have to fail in such a way as to wipe out the rest of the team gas supply also. In actual fact that manifold gives us the benefits of manifolded doubles along with the benefits of independent doubles, and the additional ability to pass of tanks and plug a spare reg into anything you may be carrying.

    I'm not going to tell anyone they're wrong for diving any other way, you're welcome to it and I'll dive with anyone safe in whatever config they choose, this is however streets ahead in team diving concepts compared to any other rebreather on the market right now.
    Last edited by Dave1981; 9th November 2011 at 00:44. Reason: grammar

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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    I am still not clear, you have 3 second stage regs including the BOV? You have 2 dil tanks and an oxygen tank? Do you have an OC reg on the oxygen like the original MC version?
    There's always the longhose/BOV.

    You take what you need, so in the video it's one Bailout/dil, 1 O2 with no second stage and a backup reg in the pocket.

    Fine for open water ndl.

    For tech the O2 or other deco bottles must have another isolated 2nd stage in order to donate to the team.

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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1981  View Original Post
    If you can tell any difference in WOB from the longhose through the manifold you have more sensitive lungs than I do, I've been diving the Z-system for a year now.
    Well, VR recommended that their BOV is connected directly to the diluent first stage, NOT via the manifold for best breathing performance.

    Bailing out you want the best breath possible, a 1st stage -> hose -> 2nd stage is the best possible. From my personal experience, even something like a flow stop in this chain effects the breathing.

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    Re: UTD / MX-Z Sidemount Rebreather

    To be clear, I have no stake in UTD whatso ever
    I am just reading from the sidelines.
    It seems to me that there is a continuous effort to discredit what UTD are doing, or how they are setting up their system
    Each to his own.
    Look and learn. There may or may not be value to what they are doing

    Regarding the manifold and long hose issue....
    Breathing a longhose from a manifold does not hamper, hinder or do anything to the regulators' performance (in my opinion and experience)

    I have built various manifolds from 1/4 inch brass plumbing parts, silver soldered together on my IDA machines.
    I tested bailout via my 2nd stage and the integrated manifold from 40m+
    No problem what so ever......
    Breathes exactly like my 2nd stages from my OC set up which are connected directly to the 1st stage

    (And I am using a Aqualung Spiro 2nd stage, non balanced, non tunable, non fancy)

    Fom a 1st stage, the aperature for the gas to flow through to the second stage is 3/8 inch
    If the manifold is smaller diameter, perhaps some restriction
    If the manifold is bigger diameter, the restriction is already 3/8 inch at the 1st stage

    So I cannot see and have not experienced that a manifold with larger diameter than 3/8 inches will impede flow of any kind..

    my 2c's

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