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Thread: labelling ccr bailout in caves

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    RBW Member robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante's Avatar
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    HammerMeg, Sidemount Prism,

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    labelling ccr bailout in caves

    I had an idea I thought I'd run by the community. When dropping bailout tanks in a cave, it seems to me there would be value in clearly labelling them "CCR BAILOUT." My reasoning is, if someone has a problem they should know that that tank is up for grabs, rather like that tank back in Ginnie as a here-if-you-need-it. I know if I was in an emergency situation I'd have to think long and hard about taking somebody's tank, out of fear it might be a stage they need to get back to the surface. I certainly wouldn't want anybody in an emergency to hesitate about taking my bailout if they at all needed it, that's what it's there for. My name and phone number would be on there so they could contact me once they've sorted themselves out.

    Sure, all divers should have plenty of bailout, and sure, if they have an issue way back in a cave, and I simultaneously have an issue way back in a cave, then it could potentially be a problem. But it still seems worthwhile to me.

    Comments?

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    Classic Kiss

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    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    Anything staged is needed for exit. If someones desparate enough to need to grab a random cylinder it wont matter what you label it with.

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    Sorta New Member w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley is a name known to all w ripley's Avatar
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    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    Quote Originally Posted by robinfante  View Original Post
    sure, if they have an issue way back in a cave, and I simultaneously have an issue way back in a cave, then it could potentially be a problem.
    Sounds like the Russian Roulette approach to diving. Or, why carry any bailout at all if the odds are you won't really need it?

    Personally, I think you have no choice but to figure on the worst-case senario at the worst time in your dive, or else there will be a bullet in the chamber when you have to pull that trigger and go on bailout. Same with your buddy.

    "Never -- ever -- touch another diver's gear or bottles" is a respectable rule to follow whether on a boat, in a cave, or wherever. Still must agree that if I'm out of air and anything is there for me to grab I will. I will have no choice in the matter. Have to agree with EBT on that it won't make any difference as to what's written on that bottle.

    If you're in a not-so-used system then you're probably safe in presuming that your bottles will be there when you get back. Still, there are such things as leaks, blown burst discs, etc., that produce the same end result as a missing bottle. If you dive then you have to plan for contingencies. Wasn't it D ****** who said "you can never carry too much breathable air," or something to that effect.

    I know this sounds like I'm agreeing with you but I'm really not. It's just that when you're gasping for breath you will grab anything that's available to you to stay alive. If you're the one being grasped (ie, if it's your bottle that's taken), then just be ready for it.
    Bill Ripley

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  4. #4
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    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    I think I see where you are coming from .... OC stages at the end of the dive have been (in part or full) used by the diver when a CCR's stages (bailout /emergency supply) will usually be full when they are taken out of the water at the end of the dive.

    Saying that:
    • Who are you intending on trying to help?
    • What sort of caves do you dive that have that much traffic that more than one team is diving the same system at the same time?
    • Are you talking about helping members of your own team?
    • Your fellow team members should be sorting out their stages and what they need well before they get near the water, if they don't maybe best not diving with them
    • If push comes to shove (as has already been said) a diver desperate for gas will grab the first bottle he/she finds.
    I haven't dived in a cave with an OC diver in long while so all stages are bailout and are placed there on a team basis.

    F

  5. #5

    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    I don't know Rob. While I'll happily share my bail-out with a diver in trouble, I am not sure that labeling my staged bail-out with "free gas, return container when empty" stickers is such a good idea.

    Sorry I missed you guys down in JB, it sounds like you were having fun above and below.

  6. #6
    RBW Member robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante is a glorious beacon of light robinfante's Avatar
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    HammerMeg, Sidemount Prism,

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    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    Anything staged is needed for exit.
    I like to not dive that way. If I'm going to be in a system for several days I like to salt a tank here and there, as extra bailout if need be. More insurance, to my mind. I also can envision a situation where I'm not so desperate that I'm on my last breath, but when it would be pretty nice to have an extra bottle "just in case."


    • Who are you intending on trying to help?
    maybe you? really, whomever might need it. If I dropped it then it's more gas than I should need to get out with.

    • What sort of caves do you dive that have that much traffic that more than one team is diving the same system at the same time?
    Ginnie and the caves in Marianna come to mind.

    • Are you talking about helping members of your own team?
    If need be

    • Your fellow team members should be sorting out their stages and what they need well before they get near the water, if they don't maybe best not diving with them
    I agree, they'd better!

    • If push comes to shove (as has already been said) a diver desperate for gas will grab the first bottle he/she finds.
    based on the responses, clearly!:)

    Personally I bring all the gas I need, but perhaps not all the gas I'd like. When diving Jackson Blue with other divers we've had an 80 staged at 3300', another at 2000', O2 at the exit, plus each team member with an al80. I think we even had another one around 1000', I forget now. Seems excessive? Figure, we're at the back of the cave, 4800' in but only about 100' deep. Rebreather totally shits the bed. OK, 3 person team, we have 240 cu ft of gas. It takes an hour to get out, if you are moving right along. Call it an average depth of 80', there's 166 cu ft at .6 sac rate. Maybe it takes longer, 75 minutes. Now its 207 cu ft. Maybe longer still, 2 hours, 244 cu ft. Maybe the sac rate isn't .6, maybe its a co2 hit and it's through the roof. Right about then I'm damned glad we left lots of spare bottles around "that we won't need!"

    But anyways, I'm not out to talk about bailout planning, we all know about that. My point was that I, and apparently some other divers in Ginnie (never met them, I just know they leave a community bailout bottle way back) like to stash gas superfluous to our anticipated needs. I thought there might be value to differentiating between "Here's a bottle: take it and an OC diver dies" and "Here's a bottle: if you have a problem and think you might need it then go for it."

    While I'll happily share my bail-out with a diver in trouble, I am not sure that labeling my staged bail-out with "free gas, return container when empty" stickers is such a good idea.
    That's why I proposed putting a reference to CCR on it. You know what it means, I know what it means, but hopefully most OC divers wouldn't, or if they did would respect it.

    Anyways, it seems the consensus is that this is not worth bothering with. Thanks for all the responses!

  7. #7

    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    I guess if the distinction is "here's an extra bottle that isn't figured into my bailout plan", then why not.

    If it is part of my bailout plan, then I don't really want to leave an open invitation for others to use it. Accidents seem to involve multiple small issues that add up and my luck is that the one time I need that gas is the time someone else took it.

  8. #8
    RBW Member tflaris will become famous soon enough tflaris will become famous soon enough tflaris will become famous soon enough tflaris's Avatar
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    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    Quote Originally Posted by trob09  View Original Post
    I don't know Rob. While I'll happily share my bail-out with a diver in trouble, I am not sure that labeling my staged bail-out with "free gas, return container when empty" stickers is such a good idea.

    Sorry I missed you guys down in JB, it sounds like you were having fun above and below.
    I am with you on this thought. I diver swims up and gives me the out of air I will be more than happy to help out but this seems to cause more problems than it solves. It would be wiser to plan your diving accordingly and ensure that you have enough gas for your dives and your restrictions/failures/emergencies.

    Just my 2 cents

  9. #9
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    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    I can certainly understand why this seems like a reasonable idea BUT I think it would set a very dangerous precedent and I could see it leading to a major cluster should people come to expect it.

    And you know damn well some tool will take advantage of it at some point even if it is just by staying "just a few minutes longer" because they have the security of the knowledge there is a free bailout around the corner. This is just human nature.

    Add to this that it encourages entirely the wrong mindset in the cave and goes against all reasonable cave practice.

    If someone touches my, or my teams staged tanks and endangers me or my team because they can't plan for their own risks...I would be majorly pissed.

    Cheers
    Andrew

  10. #10
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: labelling ccr bailout in caves

    Quote Originally Posted by Underwaterbear  View Original Post
    I can certainly understand why this seems like a reasonable idea BUT I think it would set a very dangerous precedent and I could see it leading to a major cluster should people come to expect it.

    And you know damn well some tool will take advantage of it at some point even if it is just by staying "just a few minutes longer" because they have the security of the knowledge there is a free bailout around the corner. This is just human nature.

    Add to this that it encourages entirely the wrong mindset in the cave and goes against all reasonable cave practice.

    If someone touches my, or my teams staged tanks and endangers me or my team because they can't plan for their own risks...I would be majorly pissed.

    Cheers
    Andrew

    Amen

    I try to plan a safe dive

    So should they

    ATB

    Mark

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