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Thread: considering RB

  1. #1
    RBW Member Anders Knudsen is an unknown quantity at this point Anders Knudsen's Avatar
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    considering RB

    Hello RB world,
    I am starting to look into rebreathers, honestly I am not sure I want one at the moment, but I am just playing around with the idea of the perfect unit for my diving, and my philosophy.
    In my OC diving I am a DIR( even though I hate the word I guess that is the best way to describe my diving ) Trimix and Cave diver, but till now I am not doing single dives that require a rebreather, as I can get my diving done with 2*18 and 4 stages/ slings adding another stage should not be too much of a problem, but open water diving with more than 5 slings is in my opinion not optimal.
    So my “idea” of going towards a breather is not in order to do single dives, as I haven’t reached the limit on OC yet and for that reason cannot justify diving it, but on multi day diving in more or less remote areas, filling can be a problem, also staying up all night filling 3 sets of 2*18 and 12 stages for 3 divers isent really practical if you want to get some sleep before the dive next day.
    What I would like is a unit that is very similar to my OC rig in both setup and emergency procedures, can easily carry my minimum gas requirements, has no electronics as I find the idea of a computer controlling my po2 scary as hell, has an easy and efficient bailout technique, as I would like the rig to be as close to my OC setup as possible I don’t want OTS counterlungs, and for sure not some fancy computer integrated decompression software, as I am planning to use Ratio Deco,
    I know absolutely nothing about rebreathers, and even though the technical part of it interest me, what I really want is a tool for the job.
    The most natural step in my progress to rebreathers would be a RB80, as I really like the simplicity and the fact that I breath whatever I plug in, no mixing required, but that has the disadvantage as I will breath from my stages I will still need to fill them after every dive, even though the filling is reduced to a minimum.
    I have also been looking at the KISS classic rebreather, it has no electronics which is a good thing, but I don’t like the inverted cylinders, and the fact that you cannot carry a reasonable amount of bailout on your back – have been thinking if it was possible to invert the tanks, and mount it with i.e a manifolded 2*80cf and use a 40cf oxygen stage plugged into the breather ?
    I have also heard of people using the copis meg instead of the kiss due to the build quality, if this thing have to keep me alive on 100m+ and on 4hr+ cave dives well then it should be a great quality unit.

    Also would it be possible to add a RB80 style BOV to this unit ??
    The copis meg looks very neat and well made, can the same configuration be made with this one as I mentioned with the KISS ?? the OTS counterlungs is a big turndown for me in this case.
    Well I guess you got the idea of what I am looking for, if you have any ideas I am all ears – also just for the discussion, as I really like to think things through and hear different opinions before I decide what is best for me.

    have a good evening
    Anders

  2. #2
    Explorers Exodus Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing has a brilliant future Hanssing's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    Hej Anders,

    Velkommen til :) - For others I'll keep the rest in English:

    You seem very much DIR, and therefor the logical next step for you would be an RB80 or clone. However the Classic Kiss, Meg Copis og Pelagian can both be setup for Cave. This is done mostly by adding two large Diluent/bottm mix, and slinging the O2. Additional stages for deco-bailout are offcourse also slinged or staged in the cave.

    Some setup for long cave dives by doing the opposite, ie. having dual redundant O2-supply onboard, and slinging the diluent. The advantages are that you can hand off a lot of gas for team-members if needed, adn the O2 connections does not have QC wich mCCRs do not like.

    If you surf around on RBW you can see several descriptions of theese different setups.
    For pictures of deinverted tanks see www.dirrebreathers.com (Meg).

    One of the things that your "mindset" will not like, is the very different setup wich people uses here. There's no one-size fits all. This is very much dependant of the type of diving people do.

    Again I think a gas-extender by a factor x10 would suit your stile

    Nicolai
    Last edited by Hanssing; 3rd November 2008 at 17:13.

  3. #3
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    Its an interesting question.

    I suppose the first point I would make is that CCR diving is a totaly different way of diving so why try and bring concepts from OC over to CCR?

    The RB80 option allowed for bigger dives in caves but i don't really see it as an optimum system for diving OW or as a way to avoid very much in the area of gas logistics related issues.

    In a cave only environment the RB80 is probably the best choice for known caves but if your exploring what could be better than having 14/60 on your back but breathing optimum mix for anything down to 100m. Also if like me you find OW diving often involves unexpected changes of plan? Then a full on CCR is a much better option.

    As for ratio deco? theres no problem using it on a CCR it just adds a little conservatism. I use GF deco on a computer but I use standard GUE type Ratio deco as a back up plan on all dives. (normally in the 50-80m range around 180mins max). It works out fine.

    Id advise talking to De8us for an opinion on the RB80 and then have a talk with Mat Mexico about diving other CCR in caves. That should cover both sides of the discussion nicely.

    ATB

    Mark

  4. #4
    RBW Member mattarte is an unknown quantity at this point mattarte's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    Its an interesting question.
    As for ratio deco? theres no problem using it on a CCR it just adds a little conservatism. I use GF deco on a computer but I use standard GUE type Ratio deco as a back up plan on all dives. (normally in the 50-80m range around 180mins max). It works out fine.

    ATB

    Mark
    I'm almost in the same position as Anders and i'm following with interest this thread. In order to avoid switching topic, I opened a new thread on your a.m. statement on the ratio deco here
    http://www.rebreatherworld.com/showthread.php?t=22633
    Regards
    Matteo

  5. #5
    Eager Newbie! grazie42 is an unknown quantity at this point grazie42's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    Hej Anders,
    If I´m correctly informed, Rasmus at Nortek diving is on his way to becoming a gue-instructor, you might want to give him a ring as he propably knows enough about gue-protocols (and certainly enough about different RBs) to let you know what you´d need to "give up" in terms of protocols etc to be able to dive RBs effectively...

    Good luck in your search!

  6. #6
    RBW Member mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot has a reputation beyond repute mempilot's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    Mate a COPIS up with de-inverted large tanks ala Cederic Verdier, and a set of Golem Gear BMCL ala the HHCCR. This would be a sweet rig. I think the adapters for the BMCL to fit the Meg are on the way???

  7. #7
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    The weapon of choice for ex GUE divers seems top be the KISS but the rEvo is finding favor.

    Basically, take your Halcyon wing and back plate and bolt it on a KISS and go diving. You have one more pressure gage to configure, a 02 inject to configure and the display on your wrist. Apart from that your GUE rig can stay the same.

    No need to run inverted tanks you can re do the hoses and mount them the right way up. But id need to ask why? Inverts are easier to reach and provide better protecting for the first stages and valves.

    I think the GUE method of dealing with the long hose on the RB80 is a bit farcical. Your not donating the "working reg" from the mouth so whats the point.

    I have a 2m hose on my bailout tank and I donate that. My bailout is a BOV so the same as the RB80.



    I can see the reason for the RB80 in EKKP and WKPP if your doing a 10hour run time the lower demand on the scrubber of an RB80 is a distinct advantage. The KISS type Manual CCR offers much greater flexibility and decompression efficiency and it does so without the need of complex electronics. Yes the galvanic cells demand respect but if they fail you can always run the unit SCR or just bailout.

    Despite the negative hype the cells are manageable for a diver with the discipline of a GUE long range cave diver.

    ATB

    Mark

  8. #8
    Still Searching matt_reed is an unknown quantity at this point matt_reed's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    Hi Anders,

    In a similar situation to you I am finding the Pelagian to be an excellent tool, with the possibility to do everything you are talking about.

    The counter lungs sit nicely out of the way, and tanks trim etc are all in the same vein as OC. No electronics and the needle valve gives great control over ppo2.

    There is a thread in the Pelagian section with pics of Dimtri who has configured with twin 6l of dil/back gas and a sling of O2. Seems to be working for him.

    Good luck with whatever you choose,

    Matt.

  9. #9
    RBW Member Anders Knudsen is an unknown quantity at this point Anders Knudsen's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    Hi everyone,

    thanks alot for all your suggestions - keep them coming

    Mark, my point of view is that you dont have to change much in your protocol to dive a rebreather, and that it should simply be a peace of kit to add between your twinset when needed - without any changes in procedures ( besides having to check po2 and having the loop)
    I am leaning alot towards the RB80 as this gives me the opportunity to keep these techniques, and keep a standard rig, that will be intuitive to my non RB buddys in terms of emergency procedures.
    also seems like the most "simple" unit to dive, with a great build quality, good scrubber duration and a huge benifit in gas logistic compared to my OC rig

    but the COPIS with BMCL inverted cylinders and such does sound like a possibility - I am just not that happy with buying a unit and wanting to modefy it even before it comes out of the box - and I bet it will also be hard to get some training on a non standart unit.

    if you are diving anything like this, some pictures would be appriciated

  10. #10
    RBW Member offpro has a spectacular aura about offpro has a spectacular aura about offpro has a spectacular aura about offpro has a spectacular aura about offpro has a spectacular aura about offpro has a spectacular aura about offpro's Avatar
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    Re: considering RB

    Quote Originally Posted by Anders Knudsen  View Original Post

    but the COPIS with BMCL inverted cylinders and such does sound like a possibility - I am just not that happy with buying a unit and wanting to modefy it even before it comes out of the box - and I bet it will also be hard to get some training on a non standart unit.

    Give Rasmus Lauritsen from Nortech Diving a call... He is also a instructor on the AH1 (RB80 clone)

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