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Thread: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

  1. #31
    "Two Sheds" Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by cramerdn  View Original Post
    That's why Jaguars are the best selling cars in the world and those crappy realiable Hondas are just death traps.

    To me, "it just works over and over again regardless of the situation" is not a bad thing.

    "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"
    With the exception of the Inspo, I don't think there are enough units out there to do any sort of proper statistical analysis. Fortunately there are also not enough fatalities too! Rebreather incidents are a valuable learning tool, but only from a one-off, not statistical perspective.

    ----

    I think that driving is often a good analogy for diving. I'm a more skillful driver than when I first started, but I admit that I take more risks, and do some manoeuvers that I wouldn't have attempted when I was starting out and stalling the car every five minutes!

    Something that keeps working over and over again is great, until it stops working. Then you find out whether you've been complacent or not. Since my flood after 45mins at 60m I worry about having another flood. I know why my first flood occured, and I think it unlikely that I'll have another, but it really makes me plan for the worst.

    But I'm rambling and I'm not sure what the above has to do with ECCR and MCCR. Perhaps a way of summing it up would be to say that complacency kills and it's easier to be complacent on an ECCR?

    Janos

  2. #32
    All IMVHO obviously... Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by mountain diver  View Original Post
    Mark, you brought up the point of statistic on the KISS unit as numbers go.
    this is what I 'm talking about, people will base a sole decision on this stat to
    lull them self's into a false sense of security. Regardless of the unit, they think
    they are safe from harms way, this is of course is further from the truth.
    IMO Anyone buying a KISS under this missaprehension will have it torn out of them on their training dives... after they sit though the lectures on what can happen with high and low PPO2- they will be Glued to their displays for the first 2-3days... by the end of their first week they might start looking up again!

    I don't entirely agree with the- a KISS Will kill you so its safer line... IMO its all about Assumption.

    Assumption being the Mother of all F***-ups, with MCCR you can assume very little.

  3. #33
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Field  View Original Post
    IMO Anyone buying a KISS under this missaprehension will have it torn out of them on their training dives... after they sit though the lectures on what can happen with high and low PPO2- they will be Glued to their displays for the first 2-3days... by the end of their first week they might start looking up again!
    I doubt that it's any different for people on Inspo or <insert name of chosen eCCR> courses, as that part of the material must be pretty much the same (ok, different failure modes but same eventual outcome). Complacency and assumption kill - it's just a question of exactly how and exactly when (to paraphrase a number of people who've posted on here).

    I agree though, that people who allow themselves to believe that they are safe because no-one else has died on the unit that they use are foolish. The numbers just aren't large enough to justify that kind of confidence, coupled with the fact that the unit is only a small part of the equation.

    Cheers,

  4. #34
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    Didn't I read somewhere that the KISS is the second most prolific CCR out there after the Inspo?
    It's still only a fraction of AP's share. What's the current serial number? In the 400's maybe? Even conservative estimates of AP units is many thousands.

    Quote Originally Posted by cramerdn  View Original Post
    To me, "it just works over and over again regardless of the situation" is not a bad thing.
    I similarly don't see that as a problem. The user's attitude on the other hand is what puts the spin on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janos  View Original Post
    Something that keeps working over and over again is great, until it stops working. Then you find out whether you've been complacent or not. Since my flood after 45mins at 60m I worry about having another flood. I know why my first flood occured, and I think it unlikely that I'll have another, but it really makes me plan for the worst.
    This is the brick wall that you very often run into with safety discussions. Unless you have had something happen then you do NOT know just how bad it is. Like people who say I won't dive with a BOV because I've never needed it and I can get to my offboard in a few seconds -- well, those few seconds will be the longest of your life when it happens. Same with floods, CO2 hits, caustics, etc. Luckily I've only had minor experience of all of them but even minor was enough to batter me round the head.

    I've gone the opposite way to most people, from mCCR to eCCR. Admittedly I'm still in my early days but I haven't found the transition traumatic. Other than a solenoid adding gas rather than a bleed valve there is very little difference other than unit specific technical details. Which makes me think that the BIG difference is how well (or not) users understand the controllers/handsets. Speaking for myself, the big reason I've always shyed away from the YBOD is that I've attempted to read the manual and people have talked me through how the electronics work and every time I just zone out. Too much going on for me, too many wrong turns I could take.

    Cheers,

    Stuart

  5. #35
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by mountain diver  View Original Post
    Mark, you brought up the point of statistic on the KISS unit as numbers go.
    this is what I 'm talking about, people will base a sole decision on this stat to
    lull them self's into a false sense of security. Regardless of the unit, they think
    they are safe from harms way, this is of course is further from the truth.
    I only brought it up in direct response to you comments. I stand by the fact its the divers of KISS units that are safe, not the units.

    You cant buy a KISS and expect to be safe, you have to buy in to the mentality that KISS and other MCCR divers have.

    The second point is we have this mentality because we have no choice and the unit is constantly teaching us how the dive affects the way the unit performs.

    So MCCR divers are on a constant upward learning cycle and ECCR divers are on a constant downward learning cycle.

    Kevin proudly boasted that no one has ever died on a Hammer head CCR. We joked that this was because they broke so often they kept you on you're toes :D

    Kevin is boast is a little hollow as people have died using Hammer Head electronics on the Optima and on the Mk15, but like many other CCR incidents its doubtful if the unit controllers had anything to do with the incident.

    ATB

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark Chase; 18th August 2008 at 16:29.

  6. #36
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    So MCCR divers are on a constant upward learning cycle and ECCR divers are on a constant downward learning cycle.
    Cool, 100 more accident free hours on my unit and I ought to be stupid enough to make similar comments.

    The diver is the majoriy of the issue in any accident. There are plently of human factors in accidents other than just "human error". Rebreathers are certainly less forgiving than OC but its the divers that are more safe or less safe.

    So the question really should not be what type of unit is safer but what type of diver is safer.

  7. #37
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    First, think that probably there is no basis to say that a mccr is safer than an eccr from the statistical point of view, as there are far more of eccr than mccr. My Ckiss bought two months ago is serial nr. 332, and it is my understanding that AP has sold at least 10.000 units of its models.

    But let's suppose than mccr are really safer. Would be this caused by the fact that the diver has to monitor closely & frequently the unit, or rather because the constant injection of O2 at metabolic rate prevents the ppO2 to drop enough? Also, it might be that the implicit depth limts of mccr prevents them to go to depths reserved to eccr?

  8. #38
    &amp;quot;Two Sheds&amp;quot; Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by cramerdn  View Original Post
    Cool, 100 more accident free hours on my unit and I ought to be stupid enough to make similar comments.

    The diver is the majoriy of the issue in any accident. There are plently of human factors in accidents other than just "human error". Rebreathers are certainly less forgiving than OC but its the divers that are more safe or less safe.

    So the question really should not be what type of unit is safer but what type of diver is safer.
    The implicit assumption in your statement above is that diving ECCR or MCCR does not alter the diver's behaviour as they grow used to diving CCR. I think Mark disagrees (as do I).

    Janos

  9. #39
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Just to clear things up, I'm not new to rebreathers, I have been diving an inspo for a while upto about 90m, and have now sold it. I intended to buy another one in a year or two (had to have a break due to back problems).

    I have had to dive the rebreather manually due to various failures on a number of occasions, and what scares me is its suprisingly hard when you havent had any practice for a while, and your not used to it.

    Ultimatly I do want an eCCR again, but Im starting to think time on a mCCR will help me be a much better diver.

    As far as statistics, if they are taken out of context they do mean nothing. For example 'most murders are committed within 12 hours of eating bread.' Quite true, but does not have any effect on murders.

    Also if we take the standard ford focus and the sports model. From an insurance POV the sports model is higher risk, from a safety perspective the sports model is actually safer (better brakes etc.). What makes the diffrence is the driver.

    The acident rate is irrelevant, because people have made their own decisions to buy one or the other. It would be more applicable (but very hard to do) if the samnple set did not choose their rebreather and were allocated.

    Hence I'm trying to make my own assesment on safety from peoples experiance. I like the comment on diving a mCCR is like being strapped to the front of the car, teaches you to be safer.

    From what people have said, and previous discussions (looked up thanks), I think my next CCR will be manual. I dont think think it will be safer, but I think it will teach me to be a safer diver.

  10. #40
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by andrespp  View Original Post
    Also, it might be that the implicit depth limts of mccr prevents them to go to depths reserved to eccr?
    This isnt quite true, just for constant flow, and therefore unbalanced 1st stages. Variable units e.g. Pelagian do not have this restrcition, others will likely do similar.

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