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Thread: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

  1. #21
    Underwater Paparazzi sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver has much to be proud of sfldiver's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abbo  View Original Post
    As I said, "if something goes wrong with your 'breather". Alex has pointed out a host of things that can go wrong and take out your electronics. The simplest, which he didn't mention, is your batteries failing on you: I'm ashamed to say I had that happen on me once. Some batteries have a fast decay curve at the end of their lives - so fast that you never see a low battery warning. No drama: I shot a bag and manually added till I reached the surface; nothing bruised but my pride. It taught me a few valuable lessons.
    Yep, has unfortunately happened to me on more than one occasion, which is why I monitor my displays VERY FREQUENTLY! So I'm not sure what you think your telling me that I don't already know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abbo  View Original Post
    Even if you have working electronics, your solenoid can fail - open or closed. If it fails closed, it won't be firing when your PO2 hits .19.
    Nothing within the Optima training taught us to rely on the emergency backup injection. However, we are taught to monitor our PO2 and taught to deal with the unlikely event of a selenoid failure - So again, I'm not sure what you think your telling me that I don't already know?

    [quote=Abbo;203651]So, even with an Optima, things go wrong. The unit gets old and parts fail (like us really). [quote]

    Within my previous post, I clearly stated,

    "I assume something is going to fail, which is why I adhere to frequent PO2/system monitoring self-discipline to addresses most of that."

    Again, I'm not sure what you think you're telling me that I don't already know?




    I've never said that an eccr is better/safer than an mccr, but it does appear as though the mccr crowd does alway make the statement that an mccr is better/safer than an eccr!

    Either unit is only as good/safe as the self-discipline of the user operating it, however, there does appear to be one clear difference...

    To many mccr users constantly feel the need to whip out their Johnsons, so they can prove that thier's is bigger/better/safer!

  2. #22
    Nicholas Smith Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by sfldiver  View Original Post
    Again, I'm not sure what you think you're telling me that I don't already know?
    I was attempting to answer the original poster's question. It was my understanding that he was new to rebreathers - hence his question. You, on the other hand, know everything. Sure we're beating a dead horse: this argument has been run countless times, but I felt it would be more welcoming to answer the question, rather than brusquely tell him to go search for previous threads.

    My point was that with an mCCR, the CFO is adding O2 at 0.7 litres/min or more, so it takes a long time for the loop to go hypoxic if you take you eye off the ball. With an eCCR, if for some reason the solenoid stops adding O2 for you, you need to add O2 more frequently than on an mCCR: bad things happen fast. I believe that this is a major reason for there being more fatalities on eCCRs.

    Another reason is that people who choose to dive mCCRs are the kind of people who are more attentive to their gauges. If the group is self-selecting then people should be warned off mCCRs, because it will not magically turn you into a switched-on, attentive type if you're not already - and the price failing to monitor is death.
    Last edited by Abbo; 17th August 2008 at 22:57.

  3. #23
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    The fundamental difference is that divers don't seem to be dying while using mCCR's, regardless of an mCCR's failure possibilities. [knock on wood]

    Impressed by your homebuilds BTW. Just remove the electronics and you've really got something there!


    russell helsley
    seattle, usa


    "mCCR has failure possibilities as a eCCR has. We can have O2 feeding problems. On a mCCR a orifice can clog from dirt or rust. On the eCCR we can have problems with solenoids (open -closed).On the electronic is similar - O2 cells problems will be the main problem, but this is the same for both. A flooded displays, empty batteries? The the same problem for both. A frozen controller that indicate a nice 1.2 PPO2 also when no Oxygen is be injected is a construction fault and can happen on eCCR only, but should not, if the system design is OK. A eCCR with one main and one secondary (two different electronics,different batteries ...) is quite save. I prefer one handset and one HUD with smithercode. If there is a possibility to isolate the solenoid you can fly the unit manually if You have solenoid problems and still use the same O2 tank.The biggest difference witch makes mCCR saver than eCCRs is the practice and training on both units. A mCCR diver looks his handset or HUD much often because he know he will not live long without doing that. A eCCR will control the PPO2 less and if the unit works great for years maybe get to much confidence on the electronic.So the key factors come down to the diver

    PS: I use a eCCR in hybrid mode with a gas flow of 0,7l/min"

  4. #24
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abbo  View Original Post
    Another reason is that people who choose to dive mCCRs are the kind of people who are more attentive to their gauges. If the group is self-selecting then people should be warned off mCCRs, because it will not magically turn you into a switched-on, attentive type if you're not already - and the price failing to monitor is death.
    I thought self selection was one of the likely reasons for the lower fatality rate on mCCR's. This perception changed as I switched from eCCR to mCCR. I"m not really that anal a diver, I went for full automation for this reason originally. After using an mCCR for a year+, I feel quite strongly that the self selection is not likely to be as big an element as the way the system entrains the diver to monitor in a rhythm that relates to the changing level of risk throughout the dive, particularly rapid monitoring and addition of o2 on ascent. it appears to me that the system entrains good prioritization of monitoring and responses.

    I do expect the fatality rate to rise somewhat as they are becoming more popular, but I'm fairly certain that many of the folks who are attracted to mCCR's because they are "safer" will be transformed by the training and experience that manual diving instills. You might gravitate toward them because they are safer, but by the time you get through training and 30-50 hours of diving, there are few illusions left to maintain a slothful attitude, IMHO. I think the system is self reinforcing

    more time will tell more. In a short time, the number of mCCR divers out there will double yet again and statistical anomalies will get fleshed out.
    Last edited by Gill Envy; 17th August 2008 at 18:42.

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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Statistics where created for the purpose of manipulation, to generate a reverse in the mindset of those that oppose your opinion. Unless you build your own rebreather, you will always dive someone else's opinion.
    I have said this before, and here I 'am saying it again. If you are o.k. with that then dive the unit or let the unit dive you, only you can make that choice.

  6. #26
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by mountain diver  View Original Post
    Statistics where created for the purpose of manipulation, to generate a reverse in the mindset of those that oppose your opinion. Unless you build your own rebreather, you will always dive someone else's opinion.
    I have said this before, and here I 'am saying it again. If you are o.k. with that then dive the unit or let the unit dive you, only you can make that choice.


    Didn't I read somewhere that the KISS is the second most prolific CCR out there after the Inspo?

    So based on shear numbers of units sold and its safety record its pretty damed impressive even if it is only a statistic.

    But as we keep saying its not the unit. As a KISS owner i can tell you the build quality on a KISS is not all that good but somehow knowing that theres no safety net really focuses the mind.

    The MCCR teaches you how a CCR reacts to all diving situations and how you need to be extra careful at critical points in the dive. Each time you forget it kicks you in the head to remind you.

    ECCR, you start out mad keen and attentive and it just works over and over again regardless of the situation and in the end it teaches you to be totaly relaxed and complacent. You never learn what part of the dive is critical because it works on every part of the dive so it doesn't even teach you when its the best time to monitor the hand sets.


    I know I sound like an ex smoker because i started out with an ECCR but i relay do believe that all CCR divers should spend a year running MCCR before going over to ECCR.

    ATB

    Mark

  7. #27
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Hello,

    While I think one may elect to dismiss some methodology of statistical analysis, that doesn't justify dismissing the facts which are used in the analysis.

    To say "statistics lie" as the sole way to dismiss information and facts you don't like is not life prolonging and is not intellectually honest. Provide new facts or a new analysis of the existing fact to support a different conclusion.

    Sincerely,

    Paul
    Paul's first law states that the safety of an activity is determined by how forgiving of mistakes the activity is.

    Paul's second law states that the difference between an adventurer and an explorer is whether the doing or the learning comes first.

    "Don't be surprised if at the center of every hurricane in your life is an "I"." --paul gernhardt

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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Mark, you brought up the point of statistic on the KISS unit as numbers go.
    this is what I 'm talking about, people will base a sole decision on this stat to
    lull them self's into a false sense of security. Regardless of the unit, they think
    they are safe from harms way, this is of course is further from the truth.

  9. #29
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulTG2  View Original Post
    Hello,

    While I think one may elect to dismiss some methodology of statistical analysis, that doesn't justify dismissing the facts which are used in the analysis.

    To say "statistics lie" as the sole way to dismiss information and facts you don't like is not life prolonging and is not intellectually honest. Provide new facts or a new analysis of the existing fact to support a different conclusion.

    Sincerely,

    Paul
    Paul, " statistics can lie" and I stand by what I said.

  10. #30
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    As a KISS owner i can tell you the build quality on a KISS is not all that good but somehow knowing that theres no safety net really focuses the mind.

    The MCCR teaches you how a CCR reacts to all diving situations and how you need to be extra careful at critical points in the dive. Each time you forget it kicks you in the head to remind you.

    ECCR, you start out mad keen and attentive and it just works over and over again regardless of the situation and in the end it teaches you to be totaly relaxed and complacent. You never learn what part of the dive is critical because it works on every part of the dive so it doesn't even teach you when its the best time to monitor the hand sets.
    That's why Jaguars are the best selling cars in the world and those crappy realiable Hondas are just death traps.

    To me, "it just works over and over again regardless of the situation" is not a bad thing.

    "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

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