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Thread: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

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    RBW Member chrismc will become famous soon enough chrismc will become famous soon enough chrismc will become famous soon enough chrismc's Avatar
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    Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Statistics prove that divers are safer with mCCR's, but this could be for a number of reasons, whether it is the rebreather or the diver. Will buying an eCCR over a mCCR directly increase my risk? The three options I have considered.

    The design of mCCR's is much simpler and more error tolerant, therefore reducing the risk. Buying an mCCR over an eCCR will reduce your risk.

    The rebreather has nothing no to do with, and its in the mindset of the diver. The type of diver who chooses an mCCR is typically far more risk adverse. This doesnt mean an eCCR diver isnt, but the ones taking the biggest risks tend to choose eCCR.

    The design of mCCR's change the behaviour of the diver, to be more aware of their unit and more likley to identify and rectify faults. With an eCCR you can just follow a HUD, and you will probably be ok, until your not. With an mCCR you have to check the display, you have to be in control.

    If you choose a eCCR do you make it as safe as mCCR by flying in manually?

    Would using an mCCR before eCCR make you a much better eCCR diver?

    Thoughts?

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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Im mostly thinking its a subject thats been talked to death. You might find the search function useful :)

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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismc  View Original Post
    Statistics prove that divers are safer with mCCR's, but this could be for a number of reasons, whether it is the rebreather or the diver. Will buying an eCCR over a mCCR directly increase my risk? The three options I have considered.

    The design of mCCR's is much simpler and more error tolerant, therefore reducing the risk. Buying an mCCR over an eCCR will reduce your risk.

    The rebreather has nothing no to do with, and its in the mindset of the diver. The type of diver who chooses an mCCR is typically far more risk adverse. This doesnt mean an eCCR diver isnt, but the ones taking the biggest risks tend to choose eCCR.

    The design of mCCR's change the behaviour of the diver, to be more aware of their unit and more likley to identify and rectify faults. With an eCCR you can just follow a HUD, and you will probably be ok, until your not. With an mCCR you have to check the display, you have to be in control.

    If you choose a eCCR do you make it as safe as mCCR by flying in manually?

    Would using an mCCR before eCCR make you a much better eCCR diver?

    Thoughts?
    You've pretty much summed up allot of the the arguments.... the key factors ultimately come down to the diver: complacency and attitude....

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    RBW Member nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh has much to be proud of nigelh's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismc  View Original Post
    The design of mCCR's is much simpler and more error tolerant, therefore reducing the risk. Buying an mCCR over an eCCR will reduce your risk.
    I would say this is exactly wrong.

    mCCRs are less safe and you learn from day one that you read the ppO2 and do something to fix it. Because you know it is always drifting away from ideal nothing will stop you looking at that set of readings again and again. Read fix, read fix. It becomes a way of life and if you take too long over it it drifts enough to scare you.

    eCCRs are too safe. You try to stay nice and neurotic but a line of 1.3s every time every minute for years just makes it so hard to stay on the game. When it finally does flip out you'd better not be having a bad day because that's a Darwin. When eCCR users enter the water with the device switched off so you know they never looked at the display once you shake your head in horror but if it happened to an mCCR user you'd assume he died first and fell off the dock.

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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by nigelh  View Original Post
    I would say this is exactly wrong.

    mCCRs are less safe and you learn from day one that you read the ppO2 and do something to fix it. Because you know it is always drifting away from ideal nothing will stop you looking at that set of readings again and again. Read fix, read fix. It becomes a way of life and if you take too long over it it drifts enough to scare you.

    eCCRs are too safe. You try to stay nice and neurotic but a line of 1.3s every time every minute for years just makes it so hard to stay on the game. When it finally does flip out you'd better not be having a bad day because that's a Darwin. When eCCR users enter the water with the device switched off so you know they never looked at the display once you shake your head in horror but if it happened to an mCCR user you'd assume he died first and fell off the dock.
    I asked the same question one time to a CCR Instructor/Diver. He stated that eCCR's had more chain links but each one of these chain links were smaller and easier to fix in the case that one of these chain links broke

    In contrast to mCCR's which had fewer chain links but these links were larger and more difficult to fix in case one of these links broke.

    I don't dive mCCR's so I cannot conceptualize the links.

    Which ever way you go it is always the the diver's attitude toward the unit and the ultimate realization that through my actions I may kill myself.

    Risk versus Reward

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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    A survey shows that most top executives wear shiny black shoes. Therefore If I buy some new shoes and polish them, I can expect a salary increase and promotion shortly thereafter.

    or maybe not.

    John

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    Dave Tomblin wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    mCCR is like a car with the driver strapped to the front bumper. There would be a lot less car accidents.
    Cheers,

    Dave....

    www.wedivebc.com

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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    mCCR is like a car with the driver strapped to the front bumper. There would be a lot less car accidents.
    Yes, but when one happens, the outcome will be way worse! This is tflaris' point about more smaller links to go wrong, rather than fewer large ones.

    Anyway, it's been done to death. Let's all go back to staying alive on the units that we have got/will buy. My reading of the stats is that there are plenty of other things to get you, before a failure of the unit does.

    Cheers,

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    Nicholas Smith Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo has a reputation beyond repute Abbo's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    One way in which the mCCR is safer is the constant flow orifice (CFO), which adds oxygen to the loop at a constant rate - just below the rate you metabolise oxygen. You only have to add O2 once every 10+ minutes. That's pretty forgiving.

    If something goes wrong with an eCCR, there is nothing adding O2 till you hit the manual add. In that case, you quickly metabolize the O2 in your loop and need to add to avoid passing out. If you notice the problem and choose to stay on the loop as you ascend, you will see the PO2 fall as you ascend - alarmingly fast: you need to stay on top of things, manually adding O2 very frequently while managing the buoyancy in your counter-lungs, wings and drysuit.

    I have considered adding a CFO to my 'breather, but never got round to it. With a needle valve, like the one on a Pelagian, I would have the advantage of a CFO down to any depth.

    If you're not focussed, bad things are going to happen, whichever type of 'breather you use. You need to take a look into your heart and decide what kind of person you really are. People will tell you that mCCRs force you to concentrate - but there's no magic in that box: if you're not that kind of person it won't make you into one. If you're the kind of person who gets so utterly absorbed in your photography, for example, that you forget to periodically check your gauges, you are dead on an mCCR; on an eCCR, you will be OK as long as the equipment does its job. It's unwise to trust to that.

    There isn't a best rebreather - though there may be a best one for you.

  10. #10
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Are mCCR's safer than eCCR's?

    MCCR with no warning buzers and flashing lights is infinatly more dangerous than ECCR


    Divers who choose to use such dangerous equipmnet must be on top of their game at all times.

    Which is what makes MCCR so safe.


    ATB

    Mark

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