Differences in VR3 run times

decoweenie · 12th July 2007, 19:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by SimonK)

define 'real deco'

For Michael, it would be anything that WKPP or EKPP do...

mortenkjerulff · 12th July 2007, 20:23

Hi Phi.

You are right.

I have 2 VR3s: Version 2.1 and 5.03

If you compare the decompression stops and times when planning dives, you will find that Version 2.1 with 10% conservatism exactly corresponds to version 5.03 with 0% conservatism.

I do not know about other versions, but it is easy to check by using the diveplan modes.

Cheers
Morten

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Who knows...

Sounds like they snuck the conservatism back into the algorithm again. Don't you just love it when the manufacturer does that...

IMHO, the manufacturer should be upfront and let the users select the level of conservatism as they chose with plenty of warnings in the manual.

I guess it is just easier to treat everyone at the lowest denominator level.

womble · 12th July 2007, 21:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us)

SPOT on might be, but do they show reald deco?

As said before, what is "real deco"?? Its all based on some dodgy in-vivo tests by the Navy many years ago and lots and lots of complicated maths. There is no statistically significant data to say "if you do X then you won't get bent...."

Quote: (Originally Posted by HMP)

Would have been interesting to compare the new 2007 update with the older one......

I aggree.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Del)

this does give youtwo computers which read the same, but it doesn't answer the question of why they were reading differently in the first place. My VR3 with v.5 software was giving such long stop times I sent it back. It should arrive any day now (after 2 and a bit months) but I still have no idea if it was faulty.

Delta-p are not giving me cause to think they are producing a reliable product with good customer service...

As discussed, it's because of different conservatism levels in various software versions.

You say your pooter is giving very long stop times - compared to what? Could it be because of the in-built conservatism?

Andy Del · 13th July 2007, 13:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by womble)

As discussed, it's because of different conservatism levels in various software versions.

You say your pooter is giving very long stop times - compared to what? Could it be because of the in-built conservatism?

My BUMA (a nice acronym, that) is that I bought something which is conservative, but has had more conservatism added, and then added again, and, finally maybe even more added.

My VR3 (pooter, I like that, makes me think it farts a lot) came back yesterday, with a note that it was just fine (took over 2 months!).

Comparing algorithms is a bit difficult as the Buhlmann version is addled by the 'arbitrary' deep stops. The VPM version is just plain nuts. It's equivalent at 0% conservatism on V-planner is VPMB/E+4! What if you dived with 50% conservatism on it? I'd half expect be ongassing for part of the last stop, and may need to do more deco again, stopping just to clear the stop.

It's almost like stuttering - a stop stop, but if I stop the stop before the stop has stopped, than I may avoid having to do a further stop due to the last stop I stopped at stopping for too long...

For Christ's sake, on a 50m bimble dive I get out of the water 20 minutes after everyone else if I cut my bottom time as well. If not, then I'm likely to be swimming home, or catching the next boat!

The exact details I got from Delta-p (and they are very quick to respond to emails, thank you Al) is that I now have the new 2007v software (which includes screen saver... FFS!). Many thanks for the upgrade. They say,

The V1 algorithm is a VPM based but with Buhlmann padding and the nearest comparison is BE +4. Some users who are now using our latest software 2007v with VPM have reported a shorter decompression time on VPM compared to the older 5.03 version software. Give it a try.

in response to my asking,

Can you please let me know exactly what algorithm is in this computer? It certainly does not appear to be VPMB or VPMB/E,which is what has been advertised.

I am starting to feel gypped by their advertising. I didn't see 'VR3 with VPMBE+4' mentioned at any time. Who would have bought this option if it was clearly described thus?

At any rate, if the weather ever clears up, I'll take down, and some tables, and see how it goes. And wait to see how the liquidvision goes...

scubamartin · 13th July 2007, 15:10

Hello,

I've been asking twice by email so far if their is a project to give user the choice to select the conservatism level stating with a lower level 0 in a future software release.

The answer was no.

Here we use VPM on the VR3 as we prepare dives with V-Planner. It almost matches VPM/BE +3 but one's has to work with the "man on the line" to perform continuous deco. If you perform stop at the requested deco level, you're in for a longer deco. You have to keep the man on the line in the top portion of the ceiling. refer to the manual.

It's a shame that the lowest conservatism level is so high because I really love the VR3. I'm not saying that too much conservatism is bad. I would prefer that they let me choose what I want and lowering their level 0.

Maybe the new liquivisin X1 coming out soon, will help them in listening to their customers.

The liquivision seems to be a very promissing dive computer.refer to Liquivision X1 Home).

4 of us bought one for evaluation. We should receive it soon according to liquivision. We'll test it for all our diving conditions (Warm/Cold/air/nitrox/Trimix and CCR) till we're satisfied and feel that the computer have no bugs and then probably replace the VR3 we have.

vlada · 13th July 2007, 18:17

Thanks for posting this. VPM BE+4 is exactly where i set my v-planner, so this should work well for me

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Del)

<snipped>
The exact details I got from Delta-p (and they are very quick to respond to emails, thank you Al) is that I now have the new 2007v software (which includes screen saver... FFS!). Many thanks for the upgrade. They say,

The V1 algorithm is a VPM based but with Buhlmann padding and the nearest comparison is BE +4. Some users who are now using our latest software 2007v with VPM have reported a shorter decompression time on VPM compared to the older 5.03 version software. Give it a try.

in response to my asking,

Can you please let me know exactly what algorithm is in this computer? It certainly does not appear to be VPMB or VPMB/E,which is what has been advertised.

I am starting to feel gypped by their advertising. I didn't see 'VR3 with VPMBE+4' mentioned at any time. Who would have bought this option if it was clearly described thus?

At any rate, if the weather ever clears up, I'll take down, and some tables, and see how it goes. And wait to see how the liquidvision goes...

Rickoz · 4th August 2007, 10:09

Hi all I have the vr3 V2.0
Jason at DDD has the latest version
i'll ask Jason if i can take it on the next deco dive & post the time difference i have to stay in water.
Rickoz

onthetrain · 4th August 2007, 14:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by womble)

I have 2 VR3's, one is version 3.03aC, the other (newer one) is 5.03aC. On a number of dives now I have found that the version 5 adds about another 5 minutes of deco. I've checked all the settings, both 'pooters are the same, I wear them on the same arm, both run the same setpoints (1.25), same gasses etc. The newer one is running the Bhulmann algorithm, not VBM.

I've also found if I change the setpoint on the version 5 from 1.25 to 1.35, the older VR3 still gets me out of the water quicker . .

Does anyone know why this is?

Oooops, should haved posted this in the computer forum . . DOH!!

Come to this thread very late and have not read it all. its a simple answer. version 5 algorithm is more conservative.

12th July 2007, 19:02	#21 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Differences in VR3 run times Quote: (Originally Posted by SimonK) define 'real deco' For Michael, it would be anything that WKPP or EKPP do... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

12th July 2007, 20:23	#22 (permalink)
mortenkjerulff Customise Me! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 151	Re: Differences in VR3 run times Hi Phi. You are right. I have 2 VR3s: Version 2.1 and 5.03 If you compare the decompression stops and times when planning dives, you will find that Version 2.1 with 10% conservatism exactly corresponds to version 5.03 with 0% conservatism. I do not know about other versions, but it is easy to check by using the diveplan modes. Cheers Morten Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Who knows... Sounds like they snuck the conservatism back into the algorithm again. Don't you just love it when the manufacturer does that... IMHO, the manufacturer should be upfront and let the users select the level of conservatism as they chose with plenty of warnings in the manual. I guess it is just easier to treat everyone at the lowest denominator level.
(Online)

12th July 2007, 21:03	#23 (permalink)
womble RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 201	Re: Differences in VR3 run times Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us) SPOT on might be, but do they show reald deco? As said before, what is "real deco"?? Its all based on some dodgy in-vivo tests by the Navy many years ago and lots and lots of complicated maths. There is no statistically significant data to say "if you do X then you won't get bent...." Quote: (Originally Posted by HMP) Would have been interesting to compare the new 2007 update with the older one...... I aggree. Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Del) this does give youtwo computers which read the same, but it doesn't answer the question of why they were reading differently in the first place. My VR3 with v.5 software was giving such long stop times I sent it back. It should arrive any day now (after 2 and a bit months) but I still have no idea if it was faulty. Delta-p are not giving me cause to think they are producing a reliable product with good customer service... As discussed, it's because of different conservatism levels in various software versions. You say your pooter is giving very long stop times - compared to what? Could it be because of the in-built conservatism? __________________ "What could possibly go wrong?? . . "
(Offline)

13th July 2007, 13:53	#24 (permalink)
Andy Del Classic KISSer Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia, Sunny Sydney Posts: 438	Re: Differences in VR3 run times Quote: (Originally Posted by womble) As discussed, it's because of different conservatism levels in various software versions. You say your pooter is giving very long stop times - compared to what? Could it be because of the in-built conservatism? My BUMA (a nice acronym, that) is that I bought something which is conservative, but has had more conservatism added, and then added again, and, finally maybe even more added. My VR3 (pooter, I like that, makes me think it farts a lot) came back yesterday, with a note that it was just fine (took over 2 months!). Comparing algorithms is a bit difficult as the Buhlmann version is addled by the 'arbitrary' deep stops. The VPM version is just plain nuts. It's equivalent at 0% conservatism on V-planner is VPMB/E+4! What if you dived with 50% conservatism on it? I'd half expect be ongassing for part of the last stop, and may need to do more deco again, stopping just to clear the stop. It's almost like stuttering - a stop stop, but if I stop the stop before the stop has stopped, than I may avoid having to do a further stop due to the last stop I stopped at stopping for too long... For Christ's sake, on a 50m bimble dive I get out of the water 20 minutes after everyone else if I cut my bottom time as well. If not, then I'm likely to be swimming home, or catching the next boat! The exact details I got from Delta-p (and they are very quick to respond to emails, thank you Al) is that I now have the new 2007v software (which includes screen saver... FFS!). Many thanks for the upgrade. They say, The V1 algorithm is a VPM based but with Buhlmann padding and the nearest comparison is BE +4. Some users who are now using our latest software 2007v with VPM have reported a shorter decompression time on VPM compared to the older 5.03 version software. Give it a try. in response to my asking, Can you please let me know exactly what algorithm is in this computer? It certainly does not appear to be VPMB or VPMB/E,which is what has been advertised. I am starting to feel gypped by their advertising. I didn't see 'VR3 with VPMBE+4' mentioned at any time. Who would have bought this option if it was clearly described thus? At any rate, if the weather ever clears up, I'll take down, and some tables, and see how it goes. And wait to see how the liquidvision goes... __________________ Yellow - the colour of greatness!
(Offline)

13th July 2007, 15:10	#25 (permalink)
scubamartin New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Montreal Posts: 22	Re: Differences in VR3 run times Hello, I've been asking twice by email so far if their is a project to give user the choice to select the conservatism level stating with a lower level 0 in a future software release. The answer was no. Here we use VPM on the VR3 as we prepare dives with V-Planner. It almost matches VPM/BE +3 but one's has to work with the "man on the line" to perform continuous deco. If you perform stop at the requested deco level, you're in for a longer deco. You have to keep the man on the line in the top portion of the ceiling. refer to the manual. It's a shame that the lowest conservatism level is so high because I really love the VR3. I'm not saying that too much conservatism is bad. I would prefer that they let me choose what I want and lowering their level 0. Maybe the new liquivisin X1 coming out soon, will help them in listening to their customers. The liquivision seems to be a very promissing dive computer.refer to Liquivision X1 Home). 4 of us bought one for evaluation. We should receive it soon according to liquivision. We'll test it for all our diving conditions (Warm/Cold/air/nitrox/Trimix and CCR) till we're satisfied and feel that the computer have no bugs and then probably replace the VR3 we have.
(Offline)

13th July 2007, 18:17	#26 (permalink)
vlada Diver with a camera Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 71	Re: Differences in VR3 run times Thanks for posting this. VPM BE+4 is exactly where i set my v-planner, so this should work well for me Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Del) <snipped> The exact details I got from Delta-p (and they are very quick to respond to emails, thank you Al) is that I now have the new 2007v software (which includes screen saver... FFS!). Many thanks for the upgrade. They say, The V1 algorithm is a VPM based but with Buhlmann padding and the nearest comparison is BE +4. Some users who are now using our latest software 2007v with VPM have reported a shorter decompression time on VPM compared to the older 5.03 version software. Give it a try. in response to my asking, Can you please let me know exactly what algorithm is in this computer? It certainly does not appear to be VPMB or VPMB/E,which is what has been advertised. I am starting to feel gypped by their advertising. I didn't see 'VR3 with VPMBE+4' mentioned at any time. Who would have bought this option if it was clearly described thus? At any rate, if the weather ever clears up, I'll take down, and some tables, and see how it goes. And wait to see how the liquidvision goes... __________________ Vlada www.wrecksandreefs.com
(Online)

4th August 2007, 10:09	#27 (permalink)
Rickoz KISS Rebreather Pilot 109 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 168	Re: Differences in VR3 run times Hi all I have the vr3 V2.0 Jason at DDD has the latest version i'll ask Jason if i can take it on the next deco dive & post the time difference i have to stay in water. Rickoz __________________ Rickoz http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...sland-r-u.html
(Offline)

4th August 2007, 14:17	#28 (permalink)
onthetrain New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: POOLE Posts: 62	Re: Differences in VR3 run times Quote: (Originally Posted by womble) I have 2 VR3's, one is version 3.03aC, the other (newer one) is 5.03aC. On a number of dives now I have found that the version 5 adds about another 5 minutes of deco. I've checked all the settings, both 'pooters are the same, I wear them on the same arm, both run the same setpoints (1.25), same gasses etc. The newer one is running the Bhulmann algorithm, not VBM. I've also found if I change the setpoint on the version 5 from 1.25 to 1.35, the older VR3 still gets me out of the water quicker . . Does anyone know why this is? Oooops, should haved posted this in the computer forum . . DOH!! Come to this thread very late and have not read it all. its a simple answer. version 5 algorithm is more conservative.
(Offline)

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