VR£ Bailout gases - is it OK to leave them ON all the time?!!

JonnyB · 12th May 2005, 05:59

First of all i do not own a VR3(yet!!!) so what i am about to say may be entirely wrong...
I am trying to remember a discussion i had with a friend of mine and the way he dowe his VR3 with the inspiration.
I think he said that he would plan the dive ahead, with his diluent on CCR mode and then the bailout modes, different mixes depending on the MOD of the contents, then in case he had to bailout during the dive he was only a fast button combination away to tell the computer that he had to bailout and then depending on the depth the computer would automatically start calculating the gas he is supposed to use all he had to do was to confirm the gas switch at each level. This sounds very logical to me, but i do not know if it this way or not. I might remember wrong as the discusison was some time last year!

/Jonny

Padowan · 12th May 2005, 06:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

John if your VR3 doesn’t automatically switch diluents at the MODs you set prior to the dive then how do you activate a diluent switch?

On my unit it’s automatic. At the predetermined MOD it switches diluent and shows me on the screen the diluent it has switched to. It has already allowed for the switch in the TTS calculation and I all I have to do is tick it with a single right button push to confirm I have made the switch to have the decompression profile continue to follow the TTS shown.

If I were to fail to confirm the switch the TTS data becomes garbage. I believe that if I go into gas list at that point and switch the new dileunt off, the computer will recompute my deco based on the remaining gases on the switched on list.

I have never tried this so it’s just going on the info in the manual. As we all know that’s a dodgy thing to do

ATB

Mark Chase

Yes and no. The immediate TTS value (ie the one you are looking at at a moment in time) DOES assume that all the gasses switched on will be used at their respective MODs. BUT the rate that the TTS drops will only be accurate IF you confirm that you have made each diluent switch. If you do not confirm the gas switch, the (hypothetical) stops of 1, 3, 5, 10minutes (20min TTS) may take 2, 4, 7, 12minutes (26mins) to clear - if this is understandable.

So in conculsion, the TTS is only valid if you confirm the switches to the gasses that are on - if you do not confirm the gas switches, then the TTS is invalid, BUT the stops that the computer gives at each moment in time (not the Stop screen as this is related to the TTS) you WILL be correct and it will prompt you to move to eash successive stop as the time that is appropriate for the gas that IS confirmed, not the ones that are not planned.

Mark Chase · 12th May 2005, 07:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

First of all i do not own a VR3(yet!!!) so what i am about to say may be entirely wrong...
I am trying to remember a discussion i had with a friend of mine and the way he dowe his VR3 with the inspiration.
I think he said that he would plan the dive ahead, with his diluent on CCR mode and then the bailout modes, different mixes depending on the MOD of the contents, then in case he had to bailout during the dive he was only a fast button combination away to tell the computer that he had to bailout and then depending on the depth the computer would automatically start calculating the gas he is supposed to use all he had to do was to confirm the gas switch at each level. This sounds very logical to me, but i do not know if it this way or not. I might remember wrong as the discusison was some time last year!

/Jonny

Hi Jonny

What we do is program in the diluent as gas 1 and program in the bnail out gases as gas 2 and gas 3. Then should you have to bailout you have to....

Push and hold left button

Push and hold both buttons

Push right button to confirm

Now your on OC on the Diluent you chose

Then you have to Push and hold left button

Push both buttons

Now your into gas list

Then Push both buttons quickly three times to get to gas 0-9

One push of the right button will take you to Gas 2 1'st Bailout

A push of both buttons to take you to Gas on Gas off

A right button push to switch gas on

Push both buttons twice to get back to gas list

Push both buttons three times to get to 0-9

Push right button to move to gas 3 2nd Bailout

Push both buttons to go to gas on gas off

Push right button to switch on

Push both buttons and hold to save gas

Tick gas with right button to switch to OC bailout gas three.

(Ensure that Gas 3 is the deep bailout gas)

Thats it job done. Asuming your bailout is slightly richer slightly shalower than your diluient the VR3 will imediatly switch from diluient to 2nd bailout gas as you ascend the few M to the preset MOD.

Now you can see why we want a direct link to a preset list of bailout gases.

ATB

Mark Chase

Andy Del · 12th May 2005, 08:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

John if your VR3 doesn’t automatically switch diluents at the MODs you set prior to the dive then how do you activate a diluent switch?

On my unit it’s automatic. At the predetermined MOD it switches diluent and shows me on the screen the diluent it has switched to. It has already allowed for the switch in the TTS calculation and I all I have to do is tick it with a single right button push to confirm I have made the switch to have the decompression profile continue to follow the TTS shown.

That's not automatic, that 'comfirmation' is changing the gas.

Quote:

If I were to fail to confirm the switch the TTS data becomes garbage. I believe that if I go into gas list at that point and switch the new dileunt off, the computer will recompute my deco based on the remaining gases on the switched on list.

And if you leave all your bailout gases activated, your TTS is garbage also. I suspect we are all talking around in circles and debating the finer point of the # of angels dancing on the head of a decompression code...

the real point, that I've sort of only dimly realised before is that bailing out at depth, with heightened stress levels, and having to push lots of buttons on a VR3 may not be the best idea in the world: a 1 touch bailout code would be very nice indeed...

JonnyB · 12th May 2005, 09:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Hi Jonny

What we do is program in the diluent as gas 1 and program in the bnail out gases as gas 2 and gas 3. Then should you have to bailout you have to....

Push and hold left button

Push and hold both buttons

Push right button to confirm

Now your on OC on the Diluent you chose

Then you have to Push and hold left button

Push both buttons

Now your into gas list

Then Push both buttons quickly three times to get to gas 0-9

One push of the right button will take you to Gas 2 1'st Bailout

A push of both buttons to take you to Gas on Gas off

A right button push to switch gas on

Push both buttons twice to get back to gas list

Push both buttons three times to get to 0-9

Push right button to move to gas 3 2nd Bailout

Push both buttons to go to gas on gas off

Push right button to switch on

Push both buttons and hold to save gas

Tick gas with right button to switch to OC bailout gas three.

(Ensure that Gas 3 is the deep bailout gas)

Thats it job done. Asuming your bailout is slightly richer slightly shalower than your diluient the VR3 will imediatly switch from diluient to 2nd bailout gas as you ascend the few M to the preset MOD.

Now you can see why we want a direct link to a preset list of bailout gases.

ATB

Mark Chase

WOW... Doesn't really sounds that nice...
In Comparison to either the HS explorer or the Cochran is the VR3 still the computer of choise for most CCR divers?
Will the HS Explorer act differtly?

/Jonny

Mark Chase · 12th May 2005, 09:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

WOW... Doesn't really sounds that nice...
In Comparison to either the HS explorer or the Cochran is the VR3 still the computer of choise for most CCR divers?
Will the HS Explorer act differtly?

/Jonny

No they are all powerful computers (in diving terms) with only a couple of buttons to access ALLLLLLL the functions. Expect a lot of pushing and ticking with all of them.

The VR3 is far and away the most popular CCR and Trimix OC computer with about 98% of the computer driven deco market on the boats I have been on.

So far I have seen two or three Nexus and one Explorer. The chap with the Explorer also has a VR3.

ATB

Mark Chase

***schford*** · 12th May 2005, 10:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

WOW... Doesn't really sounds that nice...
In Comparison to either the HS explorer or the Cochran is the VR3 still the computer of choise for most CCR divers?
Will the HS Explorer act differtly?

/Jonny

I think it depends Jonny on what is important for you.

In the UK certainly the VR3 is the most popular computer, in the USA the HS explorer is a lot more popular - it is what both Rob Davie and Joe Radomski dive.

I think you need to balance a number of things and what is most important for me might not be for you.

Key for me is a modern proven deco alogorithm that introduces deeper stops in a sensible manner so you are not still on gassing when you do them(unlike Pyle with some profiles) and handles bubble mechanics well.

Also key for me is it generating a similiar deco profile to my shearwater electronics on the Meg.

Thats the HS Explorer currently and I am willing to accept the trade off that if anything goes wrong it will take me 48 hours to express it to US and a bit of hassle with customs rather than 24 hours to the UK.

Cheers

Stuart

***schford*** · 12th May 2005, 10:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB)

Will the HS Explorer act differtly?

/Jonny

To Bailout on the HS explorer you do the following.

Obviously first of all you need to setup and download your gases to your divecomputer (either via the computer itself or a PC (software and leads included in price)). I have my my dil gas as gas no 4 and bottom bailout as 5 and rich as 6.

Now when your actually diving to bail out you.

1 - Press both buttons for one second
2 - Press the right button once
3 - hold the left button for 3 seconds.

Thats it.

Stuart

Mark Chase · 12th May 2005, 10:49

There is no doubt the explorer has advantages over the VR3. You can select deco models and you can fiddle with GFs as well. I don’t think the deco profiles on the VR3's are that good. The deep stops are deep (on a 100m dive it gave me a stop at 82m if I remember corectly.) but the steps in the deep stops are too big for my liking. The VR3 controls these steps with slow ascent rates but I almost always add my own intermediate stops.

However in about 8 weeks time the VR3 with VPMB software comes available. THAT should change everything.

I looked seriously at the Explorer but Paul having to pay import duty on it THREE TIMES put me off

. It’s the same with the KISS v YBOD thing. We went for the YBOD because we knew if it hit the fan we could drive to the factory get it sorted and drive home. When you have the big dive or the big dive week booked that’s a comfort.

If I lived in the states the situation would be similar (but not quite as the USA is pretty big) and I would more than likely have gone for the Explorer

ATB

Mark Chase

JonnyB · 12th May 2005, 10:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

To Bailout on the HS explorer you do the following.

1 - Setup and download your gases to your divecomputer (either via the computer itself or a PC (software and leads included in price)). I have my my dil gas as gas no 4 and bottom bailout as 5 and rich as 6.

Now when your actually diving to bail out you.

1 - Press both buttons for one second
2 - Press the right button once
3 - hold the left button for 3 seconds.

Thats it.

Stuart

This comparing to the list that Mark gave me looks alot easier...

/Jonny

12th May 2005, 05:59	#21 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 975	First of all i do not own a VR3(yet!!!) so what i am about to say may be entirely wrong... I am trying to remember a discussion i had with a friend of mine and the way he dowe his VR3 with the inspiration. I think he said that he would plan the dive ahead, with his diluent on CCR mode and then the bailout modes, different mixes depending on the MOD of the contents, then in case he had to bailout during the dive he was only a fast button combination away to tell the computer that he had to bailout and then depending on the depth the computer would automatically start calculating the gas he is supposed to use all he had to do was to confirm the gas switch at each level. This sounds very logical to me, but i do not know if it this way or not. I might remember wrong as the discusison was some time last year! /Jonny
(Online)

12th May 2005, 06:47	#22 (permalink)
Padowan Proper Boffin Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Kent, UK. Posts: 518	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) John if your VR3 doesn’t automatically switch diluents at the MODs you set prior to the dive then how do you activate a diluent switch? On my unit it’s automatic. At the predetermined MOD it switches diluent and shows me on the screen the diluent it has switched to. It has already allowed for the switch in the TTS calculation and I all I have to do is tick it with a single right button push to confirm I have made the switch to have the decompression profile continue to follow the TTS shown. If I were to fail to confirm the switch the TTS data becomes garbage. I believe that if I go into gas list at that point and switch the new dileunt off, the computer will recompute my deco based on the remaining gases on the switched on list. I have never tried this so it’s just going on the info in the manual. As we all know that’s a dodgy thing to do ATB Mark Chase Yes and no. The immediate TTS value (ie the one you are looking at at a moment in time) DOES assume that all the gasses switched on will be used at their respective MODs. BUT the rate that the TTS drops will only be accurate IF you confirm that you have made each diluent switch. If you do not confirm the gas switch, the (hypothetical) stops of 1, 3, 5, 10minutes (20min TTS) may take 2, 4, 7, 12minutes (26mins) to clear - if this is understandable. So in conculsion, the TTS is only valid if you confirm the switches to the gasses that are on - if you do not confirm the gas switches, then the TTS is invalid, BUT the stops that the computer gives at each moment in time (not the Stop screen as this is related to the TTS) you WILL be correct and it will prompt you to move to eash successive stop as the time that is appropriate for the gas that IS confirmed, not the ones that are not planned. __________________ Padowan The future's bright, the future's Yellow .....for now padowan.net - Latest Video: Scapa Flow Rebreather Diving
(Offline)

12th May 2005, 07:36	#23 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,693	Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB) First of all i do not own a VR3(yet!!!) so what i am about to say may be entirely wrong... I am trying to remember a discussion i had with a friend of mine and the way he dowe his VR3 with the inspiration. I think he said that he would plan the dive ahead, with his diluent on CCR mode and then the bailout modes, different mixes depending on the MOD of the contents, then in case he had to bailout during the dive he was only a fast button combination away to tell the computer that he had to bailout and then depending on the depth the computer would automatically start calculating the gas he is supposed to use all he had to do was to confirm the gas switch at each level. This sounds very logical to me, but i do not know if it this way or not. I might remember wrong as the discusison was some time last year! /Jonny Hi Jonny What we do is program in the diluent as gas 1 and program in the bnail out gases as gas 2 and gas 3. Then should you have to bailout you have to.... Push and hold left button Push and hold both buttons Push right button to confirm Now your on OC on the Diluent you chose Then you have to Push and hold left button Push both buttons Now your into gas list Then Push both buttons quickly three times to get to gas 0-9 One push of the right button will take you to Gas 2 1'st Bailout A push of both buttons to take you to Gas on Gas off A right button push to switch gas on Push both buttons twice to get back to gas list Push both buttons three times to get to 0-9 Push right button to move to gas 3 2nd Bailout Push both buttons to go to gas on gas off Push right button to switch on Push both buttons and hold to save gas Tick gas with right button to switch to OC bailout gas three. (Ensure that Gas 3 is the deep bailout gas) Thats it job done. Asuming your bailout is slightly richer slightly shalower than your diluient the VR3 will imediatly switch from diluient to 2nd bailout gas as you ascend the few M to the preset MOD. Now you can see why we want a direct link to a preset list of bailout gases. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

12th May 2005, 08:02	#24 (permalink)
Andy Del Classic KISSer Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia, Sunny Sydney Posts: 421	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) John if your VR3 doesn’t automatically switch diluents at the MODs you set prior to the dive then how do you activate a diluent switch? On my unit it’s automatic. At the predetermined MOD it switches diluent and shows me on the screen the diluent it has switched to. It has already allowed for the switch in the TTS calculation and I all I have to do is tick it with a single right button push to confirm I have made the switch to have the decompression profile continue to follow the TTS shown. That's not automatic, that 'comfirmation' is changing the gas. Quote: If I were to fail to confirm the switch the TTS data becomes garbage. I believe that if I go into gas list at that point and switch the new dileunt off, the computer will recompute my deco based on the remaining gases on the switched on list. And if you leave all your bailout gases activated, your TTS is garbage also. I suspect we are all talking around in circles and debating the finer point of the # of angels dancing on the head of a decompression code... the real point, that I've sort of only dimly realised before is that bailing out at depth, with heightened stress levels, and having to push lots of buttons on a VR3 may not be the best idea in the world: a 1 touch bailout code would be very nice indeed... __________________ Yellow - the colour of greatness!
(Online)

12th May 2005, 09:00	#25 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 975	Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Hi Jonny What we do is program in the diluent as gas 1 and program in the bnail out gases as gas 2 and gas 3. Then should you have to bailout you have to.... Push and hold left button Push and hold both buttons Push right button to confirm Now your on OC on the Diluent you chose Then you have to Push and hold left button Push both buttons Now your into gas list Then Push both buttons quickly three times to get to gas 0-9 One push of the right button will take you to Gas 2 1'st Bailout A push of both buttons to take you to Gas on Gas off A right button push to switch gas on Push both buttons twice to get back to gas list Push both buttons three times to get to 0-9 Push right button to move to gas 3 2nd Bailout Push both buttons to go to gas on gas off Push right button to switch on Push both buttons and hold to save gas Tick gas with right button to switch to OC bailout gas three. (Ensure that Gas 3 is the deep bailout gas) Thats it job done. Asuming your bailout is slightly richer slightly shalower than your diluient the VR3 will imediatly switch from diluient to 2nd bailout gas as you ascend the few M to the preset MOD. Now you can see why we want a direct link to a preset list of bailout gases. ATB Mark Chase WOW... Doesn't really sounds that nice... In Comparison to either the HS explorer or the Cochran is the VR3 still the computer of choise for most CCR divers? Will the HS Explorer act differtly? /Jonny
(Online)

12th May 2005, 09:56	#26 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,693	Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB) WOW... Doesn't really sounds that nice... In Comparison to either the HS explorer or the Cochran is the VR3 still the computer of choise for most CCR divers? Will the HS Explorer act differtly? /Jonny No they are all powerful computers (in diving terms) with only a couple of buttons to access ALLLLLLL the functions. Expect a lot of pushing and ticking with all of them. The VR3 is far and away the most popular CCR and Trimix OC computer with about 98% of the computer driven deco market on the boats I have been on. So far I have seen two or three Nexus and one Explorer. The chap with the Explorer also has a VR3. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

12th May 2005, 10:08	#27 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB) WOW... Doesn't really sounds that nice... In Comparison to either the HS explorer or the Cochran is the VR3 still the computer of choise for most CCR divers? Will the HS Explorer act differtly? /Jonny I think it depends Jonny on what is important for you. In the UK certainly the VR3 is the most popular computer, in the USA the HS explorer is a lot more popular - it is what both Rob Davie and Joe Radomski dive. I think you need to balance a number of things and what is most important for me might not be for you. Key for me is a modern proven deco alogorithm that introduces deeper stops in a sensible manner so you are not still on gassing when you do them(unlike Pyle with some profiles) and handles bubble mechanics well. Also key for me is it generating a similiar deco profile to my shearwater electronics on the Meg. Thats the HS Explorer currently and I am willing to accept the trade off that if anything goes wrong it will take me 48 hours to express it to US and a bit of hassle with customs rather than 24 hours to the UK. Cheers Stuart
(Offline)

12th May 2005, 10:13	#28 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Quote: (Originally Posted by JonnyB) Will the HS Explorer act differtly? /Jonny To Bailout on the HS explorer you do the following. Obviously first of all you need to setup and download your gases to your divecomputer (either via the computer itself or a PC (software and leads included in price)). I have my my dil gas as gas no 4 and bottom bailout as 5 and rich as 6. Now when your actually diving to bail out you. 1 - Press both buttons for one second 2 - Press the right button once 3 - hold the left button for 3 seconds. Thats it. Stuart
(Offline)

12th May 2005, 10:49	#29 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,693	There is no doubt the explorer has advantages over the VR3. You can select deco models and you can fiddle with GFs as well. I don’t think the deco profiles on the VR3's are that good. The deep stops are deep (on a 100m dive it gave me a stop at 82m if I remember corectly.) but the steps in the deep stops are too big for my liking. The VR3 controls these steps with slow ascent rates but I almost always add my own intermediate stops. However in about 8 weeks time the VR3 with VPMB software comes available. THAT should change everything. I looked seriously at the Explorer but Paul having to pay import duty on it THREE TIMES put me off . It’s the same with the KISS v YBOD thing. We went for the YBOD because we knew if it hit the fan we could drive to the factory get it sorted and drive home. When you have the big dive or the big dive week booked that’s a comfort. If I lived in the states the situation would be similar (but not quite as the USA is pretty big) and I would more than likely have gone for the Explorer ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

12th May 2005, 10:51	#30 (permalink)
JonnyB Johnny The Hatch Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Titan Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sweden (Stockholm)/Cyprus(Ayia Napa) Posts: 975	Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) To Bailout on the HS explorer you do the following. 1 - Setup and download your gases to your divecomputer (either via the computer itself or a PC (software and leads included in price)). I have my my dil gas as gas no 4 and bottom bailout as 5 and rich as 6. Now when your actually diving to bail out you. 1 - Press both buttons for one second 2 - Press the right button once 3 - hold the left button for 3 seconds. Thats it. Stuart This comparing to the list that Mark gave me looks alot easier... /Jonny
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