VR3 BUH or VPM

Meng_Tze · 10th April 2008, 23:43

X1 was +2 and VR3 was 0

Serge · 10th April 2008, 23:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545)

...At the moment I am thinking of using both computers as before but doing all the deep stops as per the VR3VPM and clearing the deco on it, then doing half the remaining deco on the VR3BUH...

You may be doing more harm than good. The VPM will reduce the micro-bubbles. Once that's done, there is no reason to prolong your hangs on Buh. All you are going to do is ongas more inerts and pay the penalty. Doesn't seem like a good plan.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze)

X1 was +2 and VR3 was 0

Thanks, bud. As I suspected.

Drmike · 11th April 2008, 01:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze)

Isn't that strange? That a diver needs to add stops, change the ascend profile on a such a very expensive computer? You did it, I did it, many others do it....... what does that tell us about how this computer fits in the real world? I am sure they did good market research, planned for some conservatism and then implemented and messed things up.....

I think your being a bit unfair here:-

The VR3 was the 1st dive computer to impliment deep stops. They were well ahead of their time implimenting Pyle-esq (not same but similar) long before most people had ever even heard of deep stops or bubble models.

Later as we began to learn about bubble models many people began to add even deeper stops with their VR3s. The LATER version of the VR3 does this for you (it prob should have been called 'latests' instead of VR3VPM - but thats marketting for you) The latest VR3 does just what people have been doing and just as you point out (the adding of deep stops and smoothing of ascent)

The Vr3 is not alone in the word of dive comps where divers tweak what they do. Dive one of the early explorers and youll be adding stop time (but in the shallows)

Drmike · 11th April 2008, 01:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by nobody)

I recal seeing some paper that the NEDU did on deco. It found that deeper stops increased the chance of DCS (11 out of 130 divers vs 1 in the other group or something like that). If that paper does exist and im not going crazy then wouldn't that suggest saving some money and not springing for VPM?

thats correct, ill try and dig up the paper.

IIRC air dives to certain depths it was shown to be detremental doing deep stops. not true for trimix IIRC

ADDED: Heres a link to discussion:- The Deco Stop

Drmike · 11th April 2008, 01:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by aainslie)

Oh - and Mike, going waaay back to your earlier point, I suddeenly realized why you think VPM looks more and more like Buhlmann - it's because in your VR3 implementation, it IS a tweaked Buhlmann. Hardly surprising as a result. Try running it side by side with an X1 and I think you'll see big differences, especially on a non-square profile.

nope thats not it at all.

I am fully aware of what a Vpmbe profile looks like, what a vr3buh or vr3vpm profile looks like given that I use them all regularly and on everydive

(VPMBE, V-PLANNER to help plan bailout needed and plan dive, VR3vpm to give actual deco on dive, VR3buh as back up deco to VR3vpm)

For the record I didnt say vpmbe is same as BUH I said it (vpm) was becoming increasingly like it (in respect to changes in its tail) as it went vpm - vpmbe. Personally I think it still has a little way to go and on big dives. If I had to follow vpmbe tables for some reason (I would prefer back up VR3BUH) but if for some reason I had to, Id pad the tail even more - but theres no doubt (in my mind) that in general VPMBE+3 works ok (note I said VPMBE, for dives Im doing theres a big difference between vpmb and vpmbe+3)

Meng_Tze · 11th April 2008, 01:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

I think your being a bit unfair here:-

The VR3 was the 1st dive computer to impliment deep stops. They were well ahead of their time implimenting Pyle-esq (not same but similar) long before most people had ever even heard of deep stops or bubble models.

Later as we began to learn about bubble models many people began to add even deeper stops with their VR3s. The LATER version of the VR3 does this for you (it prob should have been called 'latests' instead of VR3VPM - but thats marketting for you) The latest VR3 does just what people have been doing and just as you point out (the adding of deep stops and smoothing of ascent)

The Vr3 is not alone in the word of dive comps where divers tweak what they do. Dive one of the early explorers and youll be adding stop time (but in the shallows)

Maybe I am unfair in some eyes, I also think it is 'unfair' (to be euphemistic here) to sell something it is not and keeping quiet about it. (see bold highlight above). As I mentioned in a previous post, I was 'not aware' of any changes since they were not forth coming in what they did/update with the algo's; be that Buhlman or 'VR3VPM'. Through the boards, trial and error, padding schedules the community came to conclusions. And EVEN then/now, they play stum.....make one wonder.

But hey the world is an unfair place. You deal, play and move on.

It is all moot for me anyway, I moved on and am much happier with the X1.

tecdivertraining · 11th April 2008, 02:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Serge)

You may be doing more harm than good. The VPM will reduce the micro-bubbles. Once that's done, there is no reason to prolong your hangs on Buh. All you are going to do is ongas more inerts and pay the penalty. Doesn't seem like a good plan.

Thanks, bud. As I suspected.

That doesn't make sense by staying at your last stop to clear some of the Buh time remaining, which is what I think lance is saying he would be on-gassing inerts?

Meng_Tze · 11th April 2008, 02:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

... on big dives.

For my frame of reference, what would you consider a big dive and what would be a small or medium dive?

Drmike · 11th April 2008, 02:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze)

Even with the added knowledge and data from the field, nothing (that I am aware of) was done to update this...?

not true - they implimented that in the so called VR3VPM (vpm in name only)

Quote:

They may have been initially led by Dr. Pyle's intuition, the shape of the ascend, deep stop calculations etc. became matter of public domain and common knowledge....not updating this as a manufacturer constitutes 'messing up an implementation' in my book. If I would miss that boat, I would fire myself!

It would have been grossly negligent of a mnf to release deco comp with an algo that didnt have a reasonable amount of field testing was totally unverified or proven and make big changes to algo based on internet hearsay. They waited until more evidence existed that even deeper stops and slower ascents were safe (and Im sure the intro and sucessful take up of vpmb helped)

Quote:

I saw that. For a little while I ran my VR3 as a backup to the X1 (I predominantly dive caves) and saw dramatic differences between VR3VPM and Vplanner. Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde at play

of course you did. The VR3buh isnt buh and VR3VPM isnt VPM

Who is to say which one is safer?

Personally having seen what a good bend can do to men I dont judge how good an algo is by how fast it gets me out the water. Is that a consideration? yes, but not the primary. The primary consideration is how sh1t I feel after the dive and am I bent? Id rather sit at 6m for extra hour that sit in boat above waiting for that hour if the boats not going anywhere - whats the rush? get a book and an IPOD

Drmike · 11th April 2008, 02:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze)

Maybe I am unfair in some eyes, I also think it is 'unfair' (to be euphemistic here) to sell something it is not and keeping quiet about it. (see bold highlight above). As I mentioned in a previous post, I was 'not aware' of any changes since they were not forth coming in what they did/update with the algo's; be that Buhlman or 'VR3VPM'. Through the boards, trial and error, padding schedules the community came to conclusions. And EVEN then/now, they play stum.....make one wonder.

But hey the world is an unfair place. You deal, play and move on.

It is all moot for me anyway, I moved on and am much happier with the X1.

Maybe you should have just asked them? I did when they 1st announced it, and I was told it was not actually VPM but it gave a VPM like profile.

Every company uses marketting talk to sell products - dont see it as a crime. The fact is it is similar to VPMb (even v-planner creator RossH says it is on his website )

Quote: (Originally Posted by v-planner site)

2005

VPM-B/E model option introduced.

PDIC Brazil adds V-Planner and VPM-B model to its training.

GUE adds VPM-B model to its DecoPlanner program.

VR3 tech dive computer adds the VPM-B/E model name and emulates the VPM style output.

so dont see the harm especially seeing as its more conservative than VPMB. To get similar deco times you have to set max cons on Vpmbe

As for 'keeping stum' I suspect few companies would happily release algos they use to their competitors. I dont see you have any right to force any disclosure - its their perogative. But personally Id just ask them - as I did, if you want to know. They have never hidden the basis of their algo - in fact I think its on their website

ADDED: Happy to see the corrections have been made to dive list on v-planner site

10th April 2008, 23:43	#61 (permalink)
Meng_Tze 246 Bubbleless Cove Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: FL, USA Posts: 111	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM X1 was +2 and VR3 was 0 __________________ Homo Bonae Voluntatis
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10th April 2008, 23:57	#62 (permalink)
Serge New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: NY Posts: 94	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545) ...At the moment I am thinking of using both computers as before but doing all the deep stops as per the VR3VPM and clearing the deco on it, then doing half the remaining deco on the VR3BUH... You may be doing more harm than good. The VPM will reduce the micro-bubbles. Once that's done, there is no reason to prolong your hangs on Buh. All you are going to do is ongas more inerts and pay the penalty. Doesn't seem like a good plan. Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze) X1 was +2 and VR3 was 0 Thanks, bud. As I suspected.
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11th April 2008, 01:40	#63 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze) Isn't that strange? That a diver needs to add stops, change the ascend profile on a such a very expensive computer? You did it, I did it, many others do it....... what does that tell us about how this computer fits in the real world? I am sure they did good market research, planned for some conservatism and then implemented and messed things up..... I think your being a bit unfair here:- The VR3 was the 1st dive computer to impliment deep stops. They were well ahead of their time implimenting Pyle-esq (not same but similar) long before most people had ever even heard of deep stops or bubble models. Later as we began to learn about bubble models many people began to add even deeper stops with their VR3s. The LATER version of the VR3 does this for you (it prob should have been called 'latests' instead of VR3VPM - but thats marketting for you) The latest VR3 does just what people have been doing and just as you point out (the adding of deep stops and smoothing of ascent) The Vr3 is not alone in the word of dive comps where divers tweak what they do. Dive one of the early explorers and youll be adding stop time (but in the shallows) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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11th April 2008, 01:43	#64 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by nobody) I recal seeing some paper that the NEDU did on deco. It found that deeper stops increased the chance of DCS (11 out of 130 divers vs 1 in the other group or something like that). If that paper does exist and im not going crazy then wouldn't that suggest saving some money and not springing for VPM? thats correct, ill try and dig up the paper. IIRC air dives to certain depths it was shown to be detremental doing deep stops. not true for trimix IIRC ADDED: Heres a link to discussion:- The Deco Stop __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 11th April 2008 at 01:45.
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11th April 2008, 01:56	#65 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by aainslie) Oh - and Mike, going waaay back to your earlier point, I suddeenly realized why you think VPM looks more and more like Buhlmann - it's because in your VR3 implementation, it IS a tweaked Buhlmann. Hardly surprising as a result. Try running it side by side with an X1 and I think you'll see big differences, especially on a non-square profile. nope thats not it at all. I am fully aware of what a Vpmbe profile looks like, what a vr3buh or vr3vpm profile looks like given that I use them all regularly and on everydive (VPMBE, V-PLANNER to help plan bailout needed and plan dive, VR3vpm to give actual deco on dive, VR3buh as back up deco to VR3vpm) For the record I didnt say vpmbe is same as BUH I said it (vpm) was becoming increasingly like it (in respect to changes in its tail) as it went vpm - vpmbe. Personally I think it still has a little way to go and on big dives. If I had to follow vpmbe tables for some reason (I would prefer back up VR3BUH) but if for some reason I had to, Id pad the tail even more - but theres no doubt (in my mind) that in general VPMBE+3 works ok (note I said VPMBE, for dives Im doing theres a big difference between vpmb and vpmbe+3) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 11th April 2008 at 01:59.
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11th April 2008, 01:57	#66 (permalink)
Meng_Tze 246 Bubbleless Cove Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: FL, USA Posts: 111	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) I think your being a bit unfair here:- The VR3 was the 1st dive computer to impliment deep stops. They were well ahead of their time implimenting Pyle-esq (not same but similar) long before most people had ever even heard of deep stops or bubble models. Later as we began to learn about bubble models many people began to add even deeper stops with their VR3s. The LATER version of the VR3 does this for you (it prob should have been called 'latests' instead of VR3VPM - but thats marketting for you) The latest VR3 does just what people have been doing and just as you point out (the adding of deep stops and smoothing of ascent) The Vr3 is not alone in the word of dive comps where divers tweak what they do. Dive one of the early explorers and youll be adding stop time (but in the shallows) Maybe I am unfair in some eyes, I also think it is 'unfair' (to be euphemistic here) to sell something it is not and keeping quiet about it. (see bold highlight above). As I mentioned in a previous post, I was 'not aware' of any changes since they were not forth coming in what they did/update with the algo's; be that Buhlman or 'VR3VPM'. Through the boards, trial and error, padding schedules the community came to conclusions. And EVEN then/now, they play stum.....make one wonder. But hey the world is an unfair place. You deal, play and move on. It is all moot for me anyway, I moved on and am much happier with the X1. __________________ Homo Bonae Voluntatis Last edited by Meng_Tze : 11th April 2008 at 02:02.
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11th April 2008, 02:09	#67 (permalink)
tecdivertraining RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 462	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by Serge) You may be doing more harm than good. The VPM will reduce the micro-bubbles. Once that's done, there is no reason to prolong your hangs on Buh. All you are going to do is ongas more inerts and pay the penalty. Doesn't seem like a good plan. Thanks, bud. As I suspected. That doesn't make sense by staying at your last stop to clear some of the Buh time remaining, which is what I think lance is saying he would be on-gassing inerts? __________________ Mathew Partridge Technical Director Pro-Tech Dive College www.protechdivers.com www.tech-ccr.com
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11th April 2008, 02:10	#68 (permalink)
Meng_Tze 246 Bubbleless Cove Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: FL, USA Posts: 111	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) ... on big dives. For my frame of reference, what would you consider a big dive and what would be a small or medium dive? __________________ Homo Bonae Voluntatis
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11th April 2008, 02:11	#69 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze) Even with the added knowledge and data from the field, nothing (that I am aware of) was done to update this...? not true - they implimented that in the so called VR3VPM (vpm in name only) Quote: They may have been initially led by Dr. Pyle's intuition, the shape of the ascend, deep stop calculations etc. became matter of public domain and common knowledge....not updating this as a manufacturer constitutes 'messing up an implementation' in my book. If I would miss that boat, I would fire myself! It would have been grossly negligent of a mnf to release deco comp with an algo that didnt have a reasonable amount of field testing was totally unverified or proven and make big changes to algo based on internet hearsay. They waited until more evidence existed that even deeper stops and slower ascents were safe (and Im sure the intro and sucessful take up of vpmb helped) Quote: I saw that. For a little while I ran my VR3 as a backup to the X1 (I predominantly dive caves) and saw dramatic differences between VR3VPM and Vplanner. Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde at play of course you did. The VR3buh isnt buh and VR3VPM isnt VPM Who is to say which one is safer? Personally having seen what a good bend can do to men I dont judge how good an algo is by how fast it gets me out the water. Is that a consideration? yes, but not the primary. The primary consideration is how sh1t I feel after the dive and am I bent? Id rather sit at 6m for extra hour that sit in boat above waiting for that hour if the boats not going anywhere - whats the rush? get a book and an IPOD __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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11th April 2008, 02:21	#70 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: VR3 BUH or VPM Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze) Maybe I am unfair in some eyes, I also think it is 'unfair' (to be euphemistic here) to sell something it is not and keeping quiet about it. (see bold highlight above). As I mentioned in a previous post, I was 'not aware' of any changes since they were not forth coming in what they did/update with the algo's; be that Buhlman or 'VR3VPM'. Through the boards, trial and error, padding schedules the community came to conclusions. And EVEN then/now, they play stum.....make one wonder. But hey the world is an unfair place. You deal, play and move on. It is all moot for me anyway, I moved on and am much happier with the X1. Maybe you should have just asked them? I did when they 1st announced it, and I was told it was not actually VPM but it gave a VPM like profile. Every company uses marketting talk to sell products - dont see it as a crime. The fact is it is similar to VPMb (even v-planner creator RossH says it is on his website ) Quote: (Originally Posted by v-planner site) 2005 VPM-B/E model option introduced. PDIC Brazil adds V-Planner and VPM-B model to its training. GUE adds VPM-B model to its DecoPlanner program. VR3 tech dive computer adds the VPM-B/E model name and emulates the VPM style output. so dont see the harm especially seeing as its more conservative than VPMB. To get similar deco times you have to set max cons on Vpmbe As for 'keeping stum' I suspect few companies would happily release algos they use to their competitors. I dont see you have any right to force any disclosure - its their perogative. But personally Id just ask them - as I did, if you want to know. They have never hidden the basis of their algo - in fact I think its on their website ADDED: Happy to see the corrections have been made to dive list on v-planner site __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 11th April 2008 at 02:30.
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