Does the VR3 understand Realtime?

uri · 22nd August 2005, 11:41

Dived the other day and for various reasons ended up following my buddy's deco
schedule as dictated by his VR3. As I've noticed before, I'd ask him how much longer and he'd say 30 mins. Then 20 mins later he'd say 13 mins. 7 mins later it'd be 7 mins etc.

I've got 2 uwatec D-timers to compare to this and they always tell me that this is happening.
My buddy's VR3 is not plugged into his loop.

This pisses me off, does the vr3 understand realtime? Is it a covert safety feature that extends decotime surrepticiously? Does this mean that any deco schedule it comes up with, it artificially extends by adjusting realtime?

What's going on here?

decoweenie · 22nd August 2005, 11:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by uri)

What's going on here?

Did your friend remain below the ceiling at all time ?

If he violated and got shallower than the ceiling, the computer will penalize.

Barrie Law · 22nd August 2005, 14:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by uri)

Dived the other day and for various reasons ended up following my buddy's deco
schedule as dictated by his VR3. As I've noticed before, I'd ask him how much longer and he'd say 30 mins. Then 20 mins later he'd say 13 mins. 7 mins later it'd be 7 mins etc.

I've got 2 uwatec D-timers to compare to this and they always tell me that this is happening.
My buddy's VR3 is not plugged into his loop.

This pisses me off, does the vr3 understand realtime? Is it a covert safety feature that extends decotime surrepticiously? Does this mean that any deco schedule it comes up with, it artificially extends by adjusting realtime?

What's going on here?

Uri
The Vr3 will run on longer than the TTS says, if it has onother gas in the list turned ON but it does not receive a gas switch confirmation, so it will show the 30 mins deco but it could take 40 mins to count it down.
This is because it has allowed for the gas switch in the run time and then it assumes unless told, that the switch has not happened so it penalises by adding extra time, The reverse happens if you switch a gas on during a dive it will reduce the TTS to allow for the gas that has been added. But in this case it changes the TTS to show the new deco time I would suspect the reason it does not change the TTS in the first case is to allow a diver to remember to confirm the switch or to switch the gas OFF and see a revised TTS.

Cheers

uri · 23rd August 2005, 11:33

Thanks Decoweenie and Barrie for your suggestions.

My buddy replied

" I try to keep below the ceiling at all times so if I am 0.01 to 0.5 meters > below I am still below. By being below the ceiling I am not incurring
penalty minutes for being above.

Probably academic as VR3 has gone back to Delta-p for re-calibration,
service, CNS 999 problem and broken cable to fourth cell."

I am awaiting a reply about whether a deco gas was programmed in or not although it seems unlikely. Not solved yet I think....

Cheers

U.

Andy M · 23rd August 2005, 13:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Barrie Law)

Uri
The Vr3 will run on longer than the TTS says, if it has onother gas in the list turned ON but it does not receive a gas switch confirmation, so it will show the 30 mins deco but it could take 40 mins to count it down.

Doesnt it tell you this though when its gas switch time? in the top right, where the hand/clock/diver line appears. I was diving a wreck at the weekend and it told me to switch to air dil (because I had forgotten to switch air dil off) I turned it off underwater and the gas switch message disappeared, along with a new TTS based on 20/40.

cheers

Andy

Backscatter · 23rd August 2005, 13:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by uri)

Dived the other day and for various reasons ended up following my buddy's deco
schedule as dictated by his VR3. As I've noticed before, I'd ask him how much longer and he'd say 30 mins. Then 20 mins later he'd say 13 mins. 7 mins later it'd be 7 mins etc.

I've got 2 uwatec D-timers to compare to this and they always tell me that this is happening.
My buddy's VR3 is not plugged into his loop.

This pisses me off, does the vr3 understand realtime? Is it a covert safety feature that extends decotime surrepticiously? Does this mean that any deco schedule it comes up with, it artificially extends by adjusting realtime?

What's going on here?

I've experienced this exact same phenomenon with my VR3 and have found that it is (as others have mentioned) caused because the TTS calculation assumes the best available gases are selected from the gases indicated "on" in the set-up. So, if it recommends a switch, and you don't make it, or don't confirm it, you are penalized (though the TTS still assumes you will make it, and therefore does not reflect the actual remaining time).

It can be really frustrating to watch two minutes go by, and one minute clicks off your stop time....

Barrie Law · 23rd August 2005, 17:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M)

Doesnt it tell you this though when its gas switch time? in the top right, where the hand/clock/diver line appears. I was diving a wreck at the weekend and it told me to switch to air dil (because I had forgotten to switch air dil off) I turned it off underwater and the gas switch message disappeared, along with a new TTS based on 20/40.

cheers

Andy

Andy
The Vr3 will indicate a gas switch is due and it will recalculate a new TTS if you turn the gas OFF if you do nothing when a gas switch is indicated it will run the current TTS but at a slower than realtime rate untill it clears or the gas is confirmed or is turned OFF.

Cheers

Depth-junkie · 23rd August 2005, 18:19

the only problem similar to this that i have experianced with my VR3 is after switching to my 50% bottle @ 21m and confirming the switch on the computer doing the 21m stop then continuing upto the18m stop, after my 18m stop duration has been completed somtimes the computer will freeze the stop(i.e still show 1min @ 18m left) i know for for sure that i have completed the time as i watch the second's bar on all stops. after wainting 2-3min and still showing 1min left @ 18m. and thinking sod it i am off to my 15m stop as soon as i start to acsend 1m the thing will clear and show the next stop depth.

It has also done this to me after my total 6m stop time has cleared as well.100% gas switch confirmed to computer, watch as mins tick down 25min left to go...20...15...10.....1min then the 1min never clears, only when i start to acsend does the computer clear and show no stop-time.

I must state that this does not happen that often, may be 2-3 times a year but it is annoying nevertheless. I do love my VR3 though and find it a realy usefull tool for the diving i enjoy.

Cheers
Gareth

***jradomski*** · 23rd August 2005, 18:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie)

the only problem similar to this that i have experianced with my VR3 is after switching to my 50% bottle @ 21m and confirming the switch on the computer doing the 21m stop then continuing upto the18m stop, after my 18m stop duration has been completed somtimes the computer will freeze the stop(i.e still show 1min @ 18m left) i know for for sure that i have completed the time as i watch the second's bar on all stops. after wainting 2-3min and still showing 1min left @ 18m. and thinking sod it i am off to my 15m stop as soon as i start to acsend 1m the thing will clear and show the next stop depth.

It has also done this to me after my total 6m stop time has cleared as well.100% gas switch confirmed to computer, watch as mins tick down 25min left to go...20...15...10.....1min then the 1min never clears, only when i start to acsend does the computer clear and show no stop-time.

I must state that this does not happen that often, may be 2-3 times a year but it is annoying nevertheless. I do love my VR3 though and find it a realy usefull tool for the diving i enjoy.

Cheers
Gareth

Do you use a high conservatism factor?? if so this does make some sense since the way the vr3 does its conservatism is different than most add conservatism..

The recommended ways of addng conservatism is to adjust MO or to increase the depth.. The vr3 chooses to increase the inert gas percentages, you can get a point where the"offgassing" becomes almost flat due to this fact and just reducing the ambient pressure creates a new gradient.. so even if you are using 100% the computer diesnt treat it as such for gas loading purposes..

Depth-junkie · 23rd August 2005, 20:06

no i always have it set on 0% conservatism and pad the profile out myself as i see fit. On sub> 60m dives i tend to follow the VR3's 2Xdeep stops, then revert to my slate which is cut from v-planner VPM-B for my mid stops upto the 12m mark then let the VR3 hammer me off in the shallows.

I always feel good after my dives and this system works well for me, by padding the VR3 in this way i find it marries upto the v-planner schedule to normaly within a few mins for RT.

the problems i stated that i have with my VR3 only happen on rare occurances and i have at the moment only used it for OC diving, so i will see if this problem occurs when i use it for CCR mix diving. I personaly think it's just a little gremlin in the VR3

, as as soon as i acsend 1m it clears itself, and then carries on showing the correct deco info from there on.

regards
Gareth

22nd August 2005, 11:41	#1 (permalink)
uri Uri Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sandhurst UK Posts: 37	Does the VR3 understand Realtime? Dived the other day and for various reasons ended up following my buddy's deco schedule as dictated by his VR3. As I've noticed before, I'd ask him how much longer and he'd say 30 mins. Then 20 mins later he'd say 13 mins. 7 mins later it'd be 7 mins etc. I've got 2 uwatec D-timers to compare to this and they always tell me that this is happening. My buddy's VR3 is not plugged into his loop. This pisses me off, does the vr3 understand realtime? Is it a covert safety feature that extends decotime surrepticiously? Does this mean that any deco schedule it comes up with, it artificially extends by adjusting realtime? What's going on here?
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22nd August 2005, 11:47	#2 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Quote: (Originally Posted by uri) What's going on here? Did your friend remain below the ceiling at all time ? If he violated and got shallower than the ceiling, the computer will penalize. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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22nd August 2005, 14:26	#3 (permalink)
Barrie Law RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 726	Does the Vr3 understand realtime? Quote: (Originally Posted by uri) Dived the other day and for various reasons ended up following my buddy's deco schedule as dictated by his VR3. As I've noticed before, I'd ask him how much longer and he'd say 30 mins. Then 20 mins later he'd say 13 mins. 7 mins later it'd be 7 mins etc. I've got 2 uwatec D-timers to compare to this and they always tell me that this is happening. My buddy's VR3 is not plugged into his loop. This pisses me off, does the vr3 understand realtime? Is it a covert safety feature that extends decotime surrepticiously? Does this mean that any deco schedule it comes up with, it artificially extends by adjusting realtime? What's going on here? Uri The Vr3 will run on longer than the TTS says, if it has onother gas in the list turned ON but it does not receive a gas switch confirmation, so it will show the 30 mins deco but it could take 40 mins to count it down. This is because it has allowed for the gas switch in the run time and then it assumes unless told, that the switch has not happened so it penalises by adding extra time, The reverse happens if you switch a gas on during a dive it will reduce the TTS to allow for the gas that has been added. But in this case it changes the TTS to show the new deco time I would suspect the reason it does not change the TTS in the first case is to allow a diver to remember to confirm the switch or to switch the gas OFF and see a revised TTS. Cheers __________________ Barrie Law Rebreather World Store Supplying the Rebreather World Tel:US +19548403892 Fax:US+19543333792 Tel:EU+442071930496 Fax:EU+442077606344 Mobile+353876880628 Skype:barrielaw Email: barrie@rebreatherworldstore.com
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23rd August 2005, 11:33	#4 (permalink)
uri Uri Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sandhurst UK Posts: 37	Thanks Decoweenie and Barrie for your suggestions. My buddy replied " I try to keep below the ceiling at all times so if I am 0.01 to 0.5 meters > below I am still below. By being below the ceiling I am not incurring penalty minutes for being above. Probably academic as VR3 has gone back to Delta-p for re-calibration, service, CNS 999 problem and broken cable to fourth cell." I am awaiting a reply about whether a deco gas was programmed in or not although it seems unlikely. Not solved yet I think.... Cheers U.
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23rd August 2005, 13:27	#5 (permalink)
Andy M Dude Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 424	Quote: (Originally Posted by Barrie Law) Uri The Vr3 will run on longer than the TTS says, if it has onother gas in the list turned ON but it does not receive a gas switch confirmation, so it will show the 30 mins deco but it could take 40 mins to count it down. Doesnt it tell you this though when its gas switch time? in the top right, where the hand/clock/diver line appears. I was diving a wreck at the weekend and it told me to switch to air dil (because I had forgotten to switch air dil off) I turned it off underwater and the gas switch message disappeared, along with a new TTS based on 20/40. cheers Andy __________________ Know your PO2 at all times
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23rd August 2005, 13:39	#6 (permalink)
Backscatter New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: USA, Minnesota Posts: 1	Quote: (Originally Posted by uri) Dived the other day and for various reasons ended up following my buddy's deco schedule as dictated by his VR3. As I've noticed before, I'd ask him how much longer and he'd say 30 mins. Then 20 mins later he'd say 13 mins. 7 mins later it'd be 7 mins etc. I've got 2 uwatec D-timers to compare to this and they always tell me that this is happening. My buddy's VR3 is not plugged into his loop. This pisses me off, does the vr3 understand realtime? Is it a covert safety feature that extends decotime surrepticiously? Does this mean that any deco schedule it comes up with, it artificially extends by adjusting realtime? What's going on here? I've experienced this exact same phenomenon with my VR3 and have found that it is (as others have mentioned) caused because the TTS calculation assumes the best available gases are selected from the gases indicated "on" in the set-up. So, if it recommends a switch, and you don't make it, or don't confirm it, you are penalized (though the TTS still assumes you will make it, and therefore does not reflect the actual remaining time). It can be really frustrating to watch two minutes go by, and one minute clicks off your stop time....
(Offline)

23rd August 2005, 17:00	#7 (permalink)
Barrie Law RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 726	Does the Vr3 understand realtime? Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M) Doesnt it tell you this though when its gas switch time? in the top right, where the hand/clock/diver line appears. I was diving a wreck at the weekend and it told me to switch to air dil (because I had forgotten to switch air dil off) I turned it off underwater and the gas switch message disappeared, along with a new TTS based on 20/40. cheers Andy Andy The Vr3 will indicate a gas switch is due and it will recalculate a new TTS if you turn the gas OFF if you do nothing when a gas switch is indicated it will run the current TTS but at a slower than realtime rate untill it clears or the gas is confirmed or is turned OFF. Cheers __________________ Barrie Law Rebreather World Store Supplying the Rebreather World Tel:US +19548403892 Fax:US+19543333792 Tel:EU+442071930496 Fax:EU+442077606344 Mobile+353876880628 Skype:barrielaw Email: barrie@rebreatherworldstore.com
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23rd August 2005, 18:19	#8 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	the only problem similar to this that i have experianced with my VR3 is after switching to my 50% bottle @ 21m and confirming the switch on the computer doing the 21m stop then continuing upto the18m stop, after my 18m stop duration has been completed somtimes the computer will freeze the stop(i.e still show 1min @ 18m left) i know for for sure that i have completed the time as i watch the second's bar on all stops. after wainting 2-3min and still showing 1min left @ 18m. and thinking sod it i am off to my 15m stop as soon as i start to acsend 1m the thing will clear and show the next stop depth. It has also done this to me after my total 6m stop time has cleared as well.100% gas switch confirmed to computer, watch as mins tick down 25min left to go...20...15...10.....1min then the 1min never clears, only when i start to acsend does the computer clear and show no stop-time. I must state that this does not happen that often, may be 2-3 times a year but it is annoying nevertheless. I do love my VR3 though and find it a realy usefull tool for the diving i enjoy. Cheers Gareth
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23rd August 2005, 18:58	#9 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,993	Quote: (Originally Posted by Depth-junkie) the only problem similar to this that i have experianced with my VR3 is after switching to my 50% bottle @ 21m and confirming the switch on the computer doing the 21m stop then continuing upto the18m stop, after my 18m stop duration has been completed somtimes the computer will freeze the stop(i.e still show 1min @ 18m left) i know for for sure that i have completed the time as i watch the second's bar on all stops. after wainting 2-3min and still showing 1min left @ 18m. and thinking sod it i am off to my 15m stop as soon as i start to acsend 1m the thing will clear and show the next stop depth. It has also done this to me after my total 6m stop time has cleared as well.100% gas switch confirmed to computer, watch as mins tick down 25min left to go...20...15...10.....1min then the 1min never clears, only when i start to acsend does the computer clear and show no stop-time. I must state that this does not happen that often, may be 2-3 times a year but it is annoying nevertheless. I do love my VR3 though and find it a realy usefull tool for the diving i enjoy. Cheers Gareth Do you use a high conservatism factor?? if so this does make some sense since the way the vr3 does its conservatism is different than most add conservatism.. The recommended ways of addng conservatism is to adjust MO or to increase the depth.. The vr3 chooses to increase the inert gas percentages, you can get a point where the"offgassing" becomes almost flat due to this fact and just reducing the ambient pressure creates a new gradient.. so even if you are using 100% the computer diesnt treat it as such for gas loading purposes.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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23rd August 2005, 20:06	#10 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	no i always have it set on 0% conservatism and pad the profile out myself as i see fit. On sub> 60m dives i tend to follow the VR3's 2Xdeep stops, then revert to my slate which is cut from v-planner VPM-B for my mid stops upto the 12m mark then let the VR3 hammer me off in the shallows. I always feel good after my dives and this system works well for me, by padding the VR3 in this way i find it marries upto the v-planner schedule to normaly within a few mins for RT. the problems i stated that i have with my VR3 only happen on rare occurances and i have at the moment only used it for OC diving, so i will see if this problem occurs when i use it for CCR mix diving. I personaly think it's just a little gremlin in the VR3 , as as soon as i acsend 1m it clears itself, and then carries on showing the correct deco info from there on. regards Gareth
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