Vpm Vr3

***jradomski*** · 4th August 2005, 09:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Padowan)

Blimey, those prices are high!

So if you have an old VR3, pre v2 software, you're expected to pay £660 for an upgrade SWOP? You can nearly get a new unit for that price?

I'd rather sell mine on e-bay for £500 and then buy a new one!

I agree those upgrade prices are crazy.. Kevin should take Gene at Hydrospace as an example.. He NEVER advertised full RGBM as a feature, but once he completed it he made it available for $50 us (and many people got the upgrade for free).. Thats customer service...
Even if a full board swap is necessary there are not that much in parts on the board... The most expensive part is the transducer and its only about $30 us... Kevin should have made it possible for all revisions to be upgraded affordably... BTW the explorer and VR3 (at least the versions that I have opened up) both use the same brand of processors, so processor speed cant be an issue..

The Purist · 4th August 2005, 10:28

Those prices do kinda make a mockery of the "Buy a VR3 cos its future-proof" argument! So even for a brand new VR3 you're expected to pay a 190 quid supplement for VPM-B??? Sure Kevin had some R&D costs to get the model on board, but loading nearly 200 quid onto the price just so you can have a decent deco model seems to be a bit rich!!

Andy M · 4th August 2005, 10:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

BTW the explorer and VR3 (at least the versions that I have opened up) both use the same brand of processors, so processor speed cant be an issue..

What processor do they use please?

It would be interested to know just how much power is available...

***jradomski*** · 4th August 2005, 14:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M)

What processor do they use please?

It would be interested to know just how much power is available...

here is a pic of the bottom side with the processor
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle...php?i=839&c=14

and the top
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle...php?i=838&c=14

its no longer produced by hitachi, the division was spun off and joined with a mitsubshi division its now know as renesas

http://www.renesas.com/

This is the product family
http://america.renesas.com/fmwk.jsp?...h8s2144_group/

Digikey (not the cheapest supplier) has the faster version (2x) for just over $17US each
They have linux running on this processor...

Andy M · 4th August 2005, 15:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

here is a pic of the bottom side with the processor
http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle...php?i=839&c=14

Fascinating to see the inside of a VR3! £650 for that? Given the quantity of VR3 out there Kevin must be making a mint. Does he have a Ferrari...

Barrie Law · 4th August 2005, 16:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Padowan)

Blimey, those prices are high!

So if you have an old VR3, pre v2 software, you're expected to pay £660 for an upgrade SWOP? You can nearly get a new unit for that price?

I'd rather sell mine on e-bay for £500 and then buy a new one!

To clarify the SWOP is for a new unit to replace your old one!!

Stg is indeed meant to indicate Sterling Pounds.

I believe the new VPM-B will be available as an option on new units but the original Buhlman 16 with microbubble stops will still be the standard deco software in the Vr3.
I have no info regards how these costs are made up but I suspect we would only be truly happy if they where FREE.
You would also have to factor in postage because this can only be done by Delta P so units have to go back to their factory.

Cheers

***jradomski*** · 4th August 2005, 19:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Barrie Law)

To clarify the SWOP is for a new unit to replace your old one!!

Stg is indeed meant to indicate Sterling Pounds.

I believe the new VPM-B will be available as an option on new units but the original Buhlman 16 with microbubble stops will still be the standard deco software in the Vr3.
I have no info regards how these costs are made up but I suspect we would only be truly happy if they where FREE.
You would also have to factor in postage because this can only be done by Delta P so units have to go back to their factory.

Cheers

I doubt most people would mind paying for a modest upgrade charge, I know I wouldn't. The deco alg is the main reason I dont curently use my VR3... even if the processor was different (and he stayed with "hitachi' ) parts, they are meant to be pin for pin compatible and can be changed quite easily, thats a very small cost.... I havent added up all the parts but at worse case its just $100 for the assembled ckt board, so a modest upgrade could still be done, even replacing the ckt board..

I feel this makes a mockery of his "future proof" advertisements of the past.. Sound like the US distributor may have to get ready for some class action suit (You know how the layers here are.. they just need to smell a target), because no one in their right mind would say the upgrade fees were reasonable..

Gene at hydrospace, also has a true swap plan in place.. if someone wants to change from a model m to a model o its a totally new computer for $300 us..

If anyone (in the us) has a new one (latest version) that they'd be willing to let me open up and photograph, I'll post the anaysis here... Every computer I have ever taken apart still functions perfectly...

Even Cochran understands what a reasonable upgrade charge should be.. for example they are upgrading emc-20h owners for $50 to their latest software, along with this comes the ability to use other types of batteries (probably a new ckt board), also the units depth range has been increased (definately a new transducer since the previous one definately had a working limit shallower than the new depth rating), this also required supplying a new lens, and on top off all that the computers came back with an $8 battery installed...
not bad for $50..

Barrie Law · 4th August 2005, 23:28

Joe,
As I have stated I have no idea how the cost's are arrived at but I would assume Delta P would like to sell some VPM-B software, so I would expect them to be as competitive as possible given whatever cost's they have to bear.
Generally software upgrades to keep the Vr3 current have cost less than 50 stg and this is what I believe is meant by the 'Future Proof' advertising.
The VPM-B is more of an option, like the colour screen and it is up to the diver to choose to buy it or not. This is why I believe the prices issued are based on cost's and business acumen.
As I understand it the VPM-B has been devoloped due to diver demand for an option to switch to VPM-B if they feel it necessary, that may only be a section of Vr3 users and that may be a factor in pricing, if every Vr3 owner orderd VPM-B the cost would probably come down?
We'll see what happens!!

Cheers

***jradomski*** · 4th August 2005, 23:48

`

Quote: (Originally Posted by Barrie Law)

Joe,
As I have stated I have no idea how the cost's are arrived at but I would assume Delta P would like to sell some VPM-B software, so I would expect them to be as competitive as possible given whatever cost's they have to bear.
Generally software upgrades to keep the Vr3 current have cost less than 50 stg and this is what I believe is meant by the 'Future Proof' advertising.
The VPM-B is more of an option, like the colour screen and it is up to the diver to choose to buy it or not. This is why I believe the prices issued are based on cost's and business acumen.
As I understand it the VPM-B has been devoloped due to diver demand for an option to switch to VPM-B if they feel it necessary, that may only be a section of Vr3 users and that may be a factor in pricing, if every Vr3 owner orderd VPM-B the cost would probably come down?
We'll see what happens!!

Cheers

if it becomes an "option" and say it costs new owners 100 quid, then it should be available to others at the same price + a nominal service charge.. this would be in line with most peoples interpretation of their prior advertising.. and its good pr... But from what I have seen with most vr3 owners is that they expected reasonable upgrades to be available based on the advertising that has been done regardless of how delta p decides on marketing it (VPM).. Once you lose credibility in this industry its hard to get it back.. I am not passing judgement here especially since nothing has been made official.. Maybe if people voice their concerns they will be heard.. 1 unstatisfied customer can do more damage than the good of 100 satisfied customers.. The disatisfied person usually makes sure he is heard while most of the happy people stay quiet..

Barrie Law · 5th August 2005, 00:32

Joe
I think you will find the cost to get the VPM-B from new will be the same as the upgrade 193 stg similar to the colour screen being the same to buy new or upgrade.
Your logic on cost's can be applied to many pieces of dive gear and I doubt any manufacturer would issue a breakdown in cost's nor I suspect would any instructors or dive operators so I would not expect Delta P to suddenly find a massive saving and bring the VPM-B cost's down.
The prices I quoted are from Delta P as of Tueday 2nd August 2005.
What do you consider a reasonable price for VPM-B given Delta P will install the hardware and the software and pressure test your Vr3 before returning it to you?

Cheers

4th August 2005, 09:26	#11 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,004	Quote: (Originally Posted by Padowan) Blimey, those prices are high! So if you have an old VR3, pre v2 software, you're expected to pay £660 for an upgrade SWOP? You can nearly get a new unit for that price? I'd rather sell mine on e-bay for £500 and then buy a new one! I agree those upgrade prices are crazy.. Kevin should take Gene at Hydrospace as an example.. He NEVER advertised full RGBM as a feature, but once he completed it he made it available for $50 us (and many people got the upgrade for free).. Thats customer service... Even if a full board swap is necessary there are not that much in parts on the board... The most expensive part is the transducer and its only about $30 us... Kevin should have made it possible for all revisions to be upgraded affordably... BTW the explorer and VR3 (at least the versions that I have opened up) both use the same brand of processors, so processor speed cant be an issue.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

4th August 2005, 10:28	#12 (permalink)
The Purist New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: UK Posts: 99	Those prices do kinda make a mockery of the "Buy a VR3 cos its future-proof" argument! So even for a brand new VR3 you're expected to pay a 190 quid supplement for VPM-B??? Sure Kevin had some R&D costs to get the model on board, but loading nearly 200 quid onto the price just so you can have a decent deco model seems to be a bit rich!!
(Offline)

4th August 2005, 10:52	#13 (permalink)
Andy M Dude Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 423	Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) BTW the explorer and VR3 (at least the versions that I have opened up) both use the same brand of processors, so processor speed cant be an issue.. What processor do they use please? It would be interested to know just how much power is available... __________________ Know your PO2 at all times
(Online)

4th August 2005, 14:39	#14 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,004	Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M) What processor do they use please? It would be interested to know just how much power is available... here is a pic of the bottom side with the processor http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle...php?i=839&c=14 and the top http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle...php?i=838&c=14 its no longer produced by hitachi, the division was spun off and joined with a mitsubshi division its now know as renesas http://www.renesas.com/ This is the product family http://america.renesas.com/fmwk.jsp?...h8s2144_group/ Digikey (not the cheapest supplier) has the faster version (2x) for just over $17US each They have linux running on this processor... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

4th August 2005, 15:50	#15 (permalink)
Andy M Dude Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 423	Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) here is a pic of the bottom side with the processor http://www.rebreatherworld.com/galle...php?i=839&c=14 Fascinating to see the inside of a VR3! £650 for that? Given the quantity of VR3 out there Kevin must be making a mint. Does he have a Ferrari... __________________ Know your PO2 at all times
(Online)

4th August 2005, 16:04	#16 (permalink)
Barrie Law RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 459	Quote: (Originally Posted by Padowan) Blimey, those prices are high! So if you have an old VR3, pre v2 software, you're expected to pay £660 for an upgrade SWOP? You can nearly get a new unit for that price? I'd rather sell mine on e-bay for £500 and then buy a new one! To clarify the SWOP is for a new unit to replace your old one!! Stg is indeed meant to indicate Sterling Pounds. I believe the new VPM-B will be available as an option on new units but the original Buhlman 16 with microbubble stops will still be the standard deco software in the Vr3. I have no info regards how these costs are made up but I suspect we would only be truly happy if they where FREE. You would also have to factor in postage because this can only be done by Delta P so units have to go back to their factory. Cheers __________________ Barrie Law Rebreather World Store Supplying the Rebreather World Tel:US +19548403892 Fax:US+19543333792 Tel:EU+442071930496 Fax:EU+442077606344 Mobile+353876880628 Skype:barrielaw Email: barrie@rebreatherworldstore.com
(Offline)

4th August 2005, 19:10	#17 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,004	Quote: (Originally Posted by Barrie Law) To clarify the SWOP is for a new unit to replace your old one!! Stg is indeed meant to indicate Sterling Pounds. I believe the new VPM-B will be available as an option on new units but the original Buhlman 16 with microbubble stops will still be the standard deco software in the Vr3. I have no info regards how these costs are made up but I suspect we would only be truly happy if they where FREE. You would also have to factor in postage because this can only be done by Delta P so units have to go back to their factory. Cheers I doubt most people would mind paying for a modest upgrade charge, I know I wouldn't. The deco alg is the main reason I dont curently use my VR3... even if the processor was different (and he stayed with "hitachi' ) parts, they are meant to be pin for pin compatible and can be changed quite easily, thats a very small cost.... I havent added up all the parts but at worse case its just $100 for the assembled ckt board, so a modest upgrade could still be done, even replacing the ckt board.. I feel this makes a mockery of his "future proof" advertisements of the past.. Sound like the US distributor may have to get ready for some class action suit (You know how the layers here are.. they just need to smell a target), because no one in their right mind would say the upgrade fees were reasonable.. Gene at hydrospace, also has a true swap plan in place.. if someone wants to change from a model m to a model o its a totally new computer for $300 us.. If anyone (in the us) has a new one (latest version) that they'd be willing to let me open up and photograph, I'll post the anaysis here... Every computer I have ever taken apart still functions perfectly... Even Cochran understands what a reasonable upgrade charge should be.. for example they are upgrading emc-20h owners for $50 to their latest software, along with this comes the ability to use other types of batteries (probably a new ckt board), also the units depth range has been increased (definately a new transducer since the previous one definately had a working limit shallower than the new depth rating), this also required supplying a new lens, and on top off all that the computers came back with an $8 battery installed... not bad for $50.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

4th August 2005, 23:28	#18 (permalink)
Barrie Law RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 459	Vpm Vr3 Joe, As I have stated I have no idea how the cost's are arrived at but I would assume Delta P would like to sell some VPM-B software, so I would expect them to be as competitive as possible given whatever cost's they have to bear. Generally software upgrades to keep the Vr3 current have cost less than 50 stg and this is what I believe is meant by the 'Future Proof' advertising. The VPM-B is more of an option, like the colour screen and it is up to the diver to choose to buy it or not. This is why I believe the prices issued are based on cost's and business acumen. As I understand it the VPM-B has been devoloped due to diver demand for an option to switch to VPM-B if they feel it necessary, that may only be a section of Vr3 users and that may be a factor in pricing, if every Vr3 owner orderd VPM-B the cost would probably come down? We'll see what happens!! Cheers __________________ Barrie Law Rebreather World Store Supplying the Rebreather World Tel:US +19548403892 Fax:US+19543333792 Tel:EU+442071930496 Fax:EU+442077606344 Mobile+353876880628 Skype:barrielaw Email: barrie@rebreatherworldstore.com
(Offline)

4th August 2005, 23:48	#19 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,004	` Quote: (Originally Posted by Barrie Law) Joe, As I have stated I have no idea how the cost's are arrived at but I would assume Delta P would like to sell some VPM-B software, so I would expect them to be as competitive as possible given whatever cost's they have to bear. Generally software upgrades to keep the Vr3 current have cost less than 50 stg and this is what I believe is meant by the 'Future Proof' advertising. The VPM-B is more of an option, like the colour screen and it is up to the diver to choose to buy it or not. This is why I believe the prices issued are based on cost's and business acumen. As I understand it the VPM-B has been devoloped due to diver demand for an option to switch to VPM-B if they feel it necessary, that may only be a section of Vr3 users and that may be a factor in pricing, if every Vr3 owner orderd VPM-B the cost would probably come down? We'll see what happens!! Cheers if it becomes an "option" and say it costs new owners 100 quid, then it should be available to others at the same price + a nominal service charge.. this would be in line with most peoples interpretation of their prior advertising.. and its good pr... But from what I have seen with most vr3 owners is that they expected reasonable upgrades to be available based on the advertising that has been done regardless of how delta p decides on marketing it (VPM).. Once you lose credibility in this industry its hard to get it back.. I am not passing judgement here especially since nothing has been made official.. Maybe if people voice their concerns they will be heard.. 1 unstatisfied customer can do more damage than the good of 100 satisfied customers.. The disatisfied person usually makes sure he is heard while most of the happy people stay quiet.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

5th August 2005, 00:32	#20 (permalink)
Barrie Law RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ireland Posts: 459	Vpm Vr3 Joe I think you will find the cost to get the VPM-B from new will be the same as the upgrade 193 stg similar to the colour screen being the same to buy new or upgrade. Your logic on cost's can be applied to many pieces of dive gear and I doubt any manufacturer would issue a breakdown in cost's nor I suspect would any instructors or dive operators so I would not expect Delta P to suddenly find a massive saving and bring the VPM-B cost's down. The prices I quoted are from Delta P as of Tueday 2nd August 2005. What do you consider a reasonable price for VPM-B given Delta P will install the hardware and the software and pressure test your Vr3 before returning it to you? Cheers __________________ Barrie Law Rebreather World Store Supplying the Rebreather World Tel:US +19548403892 Fax:US+19543333792 Tel:EU+442071930496 Fax:EU+442077606344 Mobile+353876880628 Skype:barrielaw Email: barrie@rebreatherworldstore.com
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode