CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec

**wedivebc** · 3rd March 2008, 00:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

Mark

Having also just completed CCR Cave I would like to understand some of the different planning contingencies being used. Maybe you could expand upon the thought process behind you DIL and BO stategies? Also, you might touch upon how you factored drysuit inflation needs into the BO quantity?

Would I be correct in assuming that what you have quoted is what Protec and or Matt use for all students?

Thanks, John

When I trained with Matt we used 1/3rds for dil but I found Matt was also receptive to any well thought out strategy as long as you could back it up. He was also clever at exploiting a weakness in real time for those less well thought out ones.

Drmike · 3rd March 2008, 03:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

So we ran thirds on Scrubber and thirds on 02.

snip

As I said in the post to which you link, Whats the problem? we had BOVs so Howard having ran out of dill, just sucked in more dill from the bailout cylinder.

O2 1/3rds is the issue not so much dil.

Its just good planning to start a cave dive knowing you will have the required O2 supply to complete it (Plus a reserve). Thats my only point.

You can of course plug in this and that, but that should be a planned for event and not a surprise.

Accidents in caves or anywhere else are rarely caused by a single event - they are caused by series of small things and a trigger. In any overhead I think its important to keep any potential stress raisers at bay for that too can add to events that combine to an accident. Running out of O2 (or dil) can be a bit of a stress raiser as you witnessed IF its a surprise event. Sure if its planned for and expected (on big cave dives you simply have to carry and plug in extra off board o2) and certainly sat at a desk its not a problem or a stress raiser but during bad viz, when lost, when entangled, when stuck, when narked or any other issue its just something you dont need to add to the mix. BTW Side reg on Nova makes adding dil real easy - simply breathe in through the nose.

FWIW I rarely dive 1/3rds O2, but 50%. For bailout I dive no reserve. For Dil I don't even bother calculating as I run simultaneously on and off board dil so have heaps.

The reason is purely logistical.

BTW I think the best part of your report was you deliberately sinking to the cave floor to sort yourself out lol!....bet that got you a nice hot roasting

Good write up, sure you learnt a great deal - I also like the 'yellow book post' on YD - thats funny

BTW following on from the other thread - a good reason why its stupid to not have spgs on your onboard supplies

Mark Chase · 3rd March 2008, 15:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

Mark

Having also just completed CCR Cave I would like to understand some of the different planning contingencies being used. Maybe you could expand upon the thought process behind you DIL and BO stategies? Also, you might touch upon how you factored drysuit inflation needs into the BO quantity?

Would I be correct in assuming that what you have quoted is what Protec and or Matt use for all students?

Thanks, John

I can do my best to expand on what i was taught and some apparent issues but you have to bear in mind I am a total cave novice and if you want proper information talk to Matt.

At first diluent was run on thirds. So:

200 bar divide by three = 60 because we round down to easy numbers and ere on the side of safety.

So 200 - 60bar = 140bar turn pressure

However were diving very shallow water, cave profiles and we are not good with buoyancy in the shallows so we are using a fair chunk of diluent.

So to increase our range we planned on half + 20bar

So now my turn pressure is 100+ 20 = 120 bar

We are using off board bailout connected to BOVs so assuming the dive is turned due to low diluent levels we have the option of simply adding diluent via the BOV. Turn knob suck in OC gas turn knob blow into counter lungs. Pretty easy

However total loss of inboard diluent will mean total loss of wing inflation gas. Not much of a problem open water but in a cave it could be. So the choice now is to run the buoyancy off the dry suit (not my first choice) or to disconnect the dry suit and swap the feed to the wing inflate.

Frankly in the UK i run suit inflation of a separate bottle and have a spare inflate hose on the bailout anyway.

With 02 we ran thirds all the time which is both sensible and easy to do. With the average metabolic rate of 1-1.2 a 3ltr will last eight hours +. So only on caves with loads of ups and downs are we going to need to worry about 02. that said a leek can spoil any dive so Id personally have a means of injecting 02 from a redundant supply.

When open water diving on the Inspo I had my 50% deco mix with a hose on it I could plumb into the counter lung. On my KISS I use a 0.75ltr bottle plumbed into my kiss for manual injection but switched off till I needed it.

Bailout gas is planned on 100% needed to exit the cave so no thirds. Safety margins were in place via increased SAC calculations and slow and easy progression into the cave.

If you nicking bailout to supplement dill your already heading out so it doesn't rely matter unless its a monster leek and its ongoing. In which case perhaps semi closed is a better option.

ATB

Mark

bherman · 3rd March 2008, 22:06

Congrats Mark on the course.

Had Matt as trainer three years ago myself, he is a hard bastard seemingly without the ability to feel sympathy at times...
Anyhow, i survived the course and have continued on to survive so i must have learned something useful

jkaterenchuk · 3rd March 2008, 23:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I can do my best to expand on what i was taught and some apparent issues but you have to bear in mind I am a total cave novice and if you want proper information talk to Matt.

At first diluent was run on thirds. So:

200 bar divide by three = 60 because we round down to easy numbers and ere on the side of safety.

So 200 - 60bar = 140bar turn pressure

However were diving very shallow water, cave profiles and we are not good with buoyancy in the shallows so we are using a fair chunk of diluent.

So to increase our range we planned on half + 20bar

So now my turn pressure is 100+ 20 = 120 bar

We are using off board bailout connected to BOVs so assuming the dive is turned due to low diluent levels we have the option of simply adding diluent via the BOV. Turn knob suck in OC gas turn knob blow into counter lungs. Pretty easy

However total loss of inboard diluent will mean total loss of wing inflation gas. Not much of a problem open water but in a cave it could be. So the choice now is to run the buoyancy off the dry suit (not my first choice) or to disconnect the dry suit and swap the feed to the wing inflate.

Frankly in the UK i run suit inflation of a separate bottle and have a spare inflate hose on the bailout anyway.

With 02 we ran thirds all the time which is both sensible and easy to do. With the average metabolic rate of 1-1.2 a 3ltr will last eight hours +. So only on caves with loads of ups and downs are we going to need to worry about 02. that said a leek can spoil any dive so Id personally have a means of injecting 02 from a redundant supply.

When open water diving on the Inspo I had my 50% deco mix with a hose on it I could plumb into the counter lung. On my KISS I use a 0.75ltr bottle plumbed into my kiss for manual injection but switched off till I needed it.

Bailout gas is planned on 100% needed to exit the cave so no thirds. Safety margins were in place via increased SAC calculations and slow and easy progression into the cave.

If you nicking bailout to supplement dill your already heading out so it doesn't rely matter unless its a monster leek and its ongoing. In which case perhaps semi closed is a better option.

ATB

Mark

Thanks Mark I understand better but there is still one aspect that is unclear to me. Let me try to explain.

From what you have said your dive turn was controlled by your dil not your O2. If you assume that you have a complete unit failure at your maximum penetration which would be when your dill has reached half + 20 bar. How do you know how far you have penetrated the cave and hence how many minutes of exit time you need when calculating the BO at 100% for the exit?

John

dab · 4th March 2008, 00:07

Great report. The Pro Tec guys are all excellent.

Drmike · 4th March 2008, 02:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

Thanks Mark I understand better but there is still one aspect that is unclear to me. Let me try to explain.

From what you have said your dive turn was controlled by your dil not your O2. If you assume that you have a complete unit failure at your maximum penetration which would be when your dill has reached half + 20 bar. How do you know how far you have penetrated the cave and hence how many minutes of exit time you need when calculating the BO at 100% for the exit?

John

Turn time is governed by when you reach limit of bail gas your carrying* or when you reach 1/3rds of O2 or dil (or whatever gas planning ratio your using) - whichever comes first.

*before dive you estimate max penetration distance given the bail gas your taking

**wedivebc** · 4th March 2008, 03:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Turn time is governed by when you reach limit of bail gas your carrying* or when you reach 1/3rds of O2 or dil (or whatever gas planning ratio your using) - whichever comes first.

*before dive you estimate max penetration distance given the bail gas your taking

But wouldn't you say bailout is based more on distance than time?

Nailer99 · 4th March 2008, 04:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

But wouldn't you say bailout is based more on distance than time?

Can't have one without the other, can you? (honest question- didn't mean to sound like a smart-ass) Wouldn't you take your distance/ time ratio into account? Like- if you're swimming into a heavy flow on the way out, or if there's a restriction that's going to take a few extra minutes to negotiate between you and the exit, for example?

**wedivebc** · 4th March 2008, 04:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nailer99)

Can't have one without the other, can you? (honest question- didn't mean to sound like a smart-ass) Wouldn't you take your distance/ time ratio into account? Like- if you're swimming into a heavy flow on the way out, or if there's a restriction that's going to take a few extra minutes to negotiate between you and the exit, for example?

I find great enjoyment poking along looking at stuff sometimes taking side excursions but not covering lots of distance. You need to know your bailout range and the penetration distance can be planned before hand so I know how far I can go on my bailout regardless of time. The other factors 1/3 O2, 1/3 dil are time based but bailout gas is basically static until it gets used. Now I have no experience exploring new caves so then all bets are off but for well mapped and planned dives I know my bailout turn point before I start the dive.

3rd March 2008, 00:03	#21 (permalink)
wedivebc FIGJAM Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,358	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) Mark Having also just completed CCR Cave I would like to understand some of the different planning contingencies being used. Maybe you could expand upon the thought process behind you DIL and BO stategies? Also, you might touch upon how you factored drysuit inflation needs into the BO quantity? Would I be correct in assuming that what you have quoted is what Protec and or Matt use for all students? Thanks, John When I trained with Matt we used 1/3rds for dil but I found Matt was also receptive to any well thought out strategy as long as you could back it up. He was also clever at exploiting a weakness in real time for those less well thought out ones. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
(Offline)

3rd March 2008, 03:35	#22 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,128	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) So we ran thirds on Scrubber and thirds on 02. snip As I said in the post to which you link, Whats the problem? we had BOVs so Howard having ran out of dill, just sucked in more dill from the bailout cylinder. O2 1/3rds is the issue not so much dil. Its just good planning to start a cave dive knowing you will have the required O2 supply to complete it (Plus a reserve). Thats my only point. You can of course plug in this and that, but that should be a planned for event and not a surprise. Accidents in caves or anywhere else are rarely caused by a single event - they are caused by series of small things and a trigger. In any overhead I think its important to keep any potential stress raisers at bay for that too can add to events that combine to an accident. Running out of O2 (or dil) can be a bit of a stress raiser as you witnessed IF its a surprise event. Sure if its planned for and expected (on big cave dives you simply have to carry and plug in extra off board o2) and certainly sat at a desk its not a problem or a stress raiser but during bad viz, when lost, when entangled, when stuck, when narked or any other issue its just something you dont need to add to the mix. BTW Side reg on Nova makes adding dil real easy - simply breathe in through the nose. FWIW I rarely dive 1/3rds O2, but 50%. For bailout I dive no reserve. For Dil I don't even bother calculating as I run simultaneously on and off board dil so have heaps. The reason is purely logistical. BTW I think the best part of your report was you deliberately sinking to the cave floor to sort yourself out lol!....bet that got you a nice hot roasting Good write up, sure you learnt a great deal - I also like the 'yellow book post' on YD - thats funny BTW following on from the other thread - a good reason why its stupid to not have spgs on your onboard supplies __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you Last edited by Drmike : 3rd March 2008 at 03:38.
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3rd March 2008, 15:50	#23 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) Mark Having also just completed CCR Cave I would like to understand some of the different planning contingencies being used. Maybe you could expand upon the thought process behind you DIL and BO stategies? Also, you might touch upon how you factored drysuit inflation needs into the BO quantity? Would I be correct in assuming that what you have quoted is what Protec and or Matt use for all students? Thanks, John I can do my best to expand on what i was taught and some apparent issues but you have to bear in mind I am a total cave novice and if you want proper information talk to Matt. At first diluent was run on thirds. So: 200 bar divide by three = 60 because we round down to easy numbers and ere on the side of safety. So 200 - 60bar = 140bar turn pressure However were diving very shallow water, cave profiles and we are not good with buoyancy in the shallows so we are using a fair chunk of diluent. So to increase our range we planned on half + 20bar So now my turn pressure is 100+ 20 = 120 bar We are using off board bailout connected to BOVs so assuming the dive is turned due to low diluent levels we have the option of simply adding diluent via the BOV. Turn knob suck in OC gas turn knob blow into counter lungs. Pretty easy However total loss of inboard diluent will mean total loss of wing inflation gas. Not much of a problem open water but in a cave it could be. So the choice now is to run the buoyancy off the dry suit (not my first choice) or to disconnect the dry suit and swap the feed to the wing inflate. Frankly in the UK i run suit inflation of a separate bottle and have a spare inflate hose on the bailout anyway. With 02 we ran thirds all the time which is both sensible and easy to do. With the average metabolic rate of 1-1.2 a 3ltr will last eight hours +. So only on caves with loads of ups and downs are we going to need to worry about 02. that said a leek can spoil any dive so Id personally have a means of injecting 02 from a redundant supply. When open water diving on the Inspo I had my 50% deco mix with a hose on it I could plumb into the counter lung. On my KISS I use a 0.75ltr bottle plumbed into my kiss for manual injection but switched off till I needed it. Bailout gas is planned on 100% needed to exit the cave so no thirds. Safety margins were in place via increased SAC calculations and slow and easy progression into the cave. If you nicking bailout to supplement dill your already heading out so it doesn't rely matter unless its a monster leek and its ongoing. In which case perhaps semi closed is a better option. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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3rd March 2008, 22:06	#24 (permalink)
bherman New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Mexico/Norway Posts: 14	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Congrats Mark on the course. Had Matt as trainer three years ago myself, he is a hard bastard seemingly without the ability to feel sympathy at times... Anyhow, i survived the course and have continued on to survive so i must have learned something useful
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3rd March 2008, 23:24	#25 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 652	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I can do my best to expand on what i was taught and some apparent issues but you have to bear in mind I am a total cave novice and if you want proper information talk to Matt. At first diluent was run on thirds. So: 200 bar divide by three = 60 because we round down to easy numbers and ere on the side of safety. So 200 - 60bar = 140bar turn pressure However were diving very shallow water, cave profiles and we are not good with buoyancy in the shallows so we are using a fair chunk of diluent. So to increase our range we planned on half + 20bar So now my turn pressure is 100+ 20 = 120 bar We are using off board bailout connected to BOVs so assuming the dive is turned due to low diluent levels we have the option of simply adding diluent via the BOV. Turn knob suck in OC gas turn knob blow into counter lungs. Pretty easy However total loss of inboard diluent will mean total loss of wing inflation gas. Not much of a problem open water but in a cave it could be. So the choice now is to run the buoyancy off the dry suit (not my first choice) or to disconnect the dry suit and swap the feed to the wing inflate. Frankly in the UK i run suit inflation of a separate bottle and have a spare inflate hose on the bailout anyway. With 02 we ran thirds all the time which is both sensible and easy to do. With the average metabolic rate of 1-1.2 a 3ltr will last eight hours +. So only on caves with loads of ups and downs are we going to need to worry about 02. that said a leek can spoil any dive so Id personally have a means of injecting 02 from a redundant supply. When open water diving on the Inspo I had my 50% deco mix with a hose on it I could plumb into the counter lung. On my KISS I use a 0.75ltr bottle plumbed into my kiss for manual injection but switched off till I needed it. Bailout gas is planned on 100% needed to exit the cave so no thirds. Safety margins were in place via increased SAC calculations and slow and easy progression into the cave. If you nicking bailout to supplement dill your already heading out so it doesn't rely matter unless its a monster leek and its ongoing. In which case perhaps semi closed is a better option. ATB Mark Thanks Mark I understand better but there is still one aspect that is unclear to me. Let me try to explain. From what you have said your dive turn was controlled by your dil not your O2. If you assume that you have a complete unit failure at your maximum penetration which would be when your dill has reached half + 20 bar. How do you know how far you have penetrated the cave and hence how many minutes of exit time you need when calculating the BO at 100% for the exit? John
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4th March 2008, 00:07	#26 (permalink)
dab New Member Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 10	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Great report. The Pro Tec guys are all excellent.
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4th March 2008, 02:22	#27 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,128	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) Thanks Mark I understand better but there is still one aspect that is unclear to me. Let me try to explain. From what you have said your dive turn was controlled by your dil not your O2. If you assume that you have a complete unit failure at your maximum penetration which would be when your dill has reached half + 20 bar. How do you know how far you have penetrated the cave and hence how many minutes of exit time you need when calculating the BO at 100% for the exit? John Turn time is governed by when you reach limit of bail gas your carrying* or when you reach 1/3rds of O2 or dil (or whatever gas planning ratio your using) - whichever comes first. *before dive you estimate max penetration distance given the bail gas your taking __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you
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4th March 2008, 03:59	#28 (permalink)
wedivebc FIGJAM Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,358	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Turn time is governed by when you reach limit of bail gas your carrying* or when you reach 1/3rds of O2 or dil (or whatever gas planning ratio your using) - whichever comes first. *before dive you estimate max penetration distance given the bail gas your taking But wouldn't you say bailout is based more on distance than time? __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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4th March 2008, 04:06	#29 (permalink)
Nailer99 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Seattle, WA, USA Posts: 170	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) But wouldn't you say bailout is based more on distance than time? Can't have one without the other, can you? (honest question- didn't mean to sound like a smart-ass) Wouldn't you take your distance/ time ratio into account? Like- if you're swimming into a heavy flow on the way out, or if there's a restriction that's going to take a few extra minutes to negotiate between you and the exit, for example?
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4th March 2008, 04:36	#30 (permalink)
wedivebc FIGJAM Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,358	Re: CCR Cave Training In Mexico with ProTec Quote: (Originally Posted by Nailer99) Can't have one without the other, can you? (honest question- didn't mean to sound like a smart-ass) Wouldn't you take your distance/ time ratio into account? Like- if you're swimming into a heavy flow on the way out, or if there's a restriction that's going to take a few extra minutes to negotiate between you and the exit, for example? I find great enjoyment poking along looking at stuff sometimes taking side excursions but not covering lots of distance. You need to know your bailout range and the penetration distance can be planned before hand so I know how far I can go on my bailout regardless of time. The other factors 1/3 O2, 1/3 dil are time based but bailout gas is basically static until it gets used. Now I have no experience exploring new caves so then all bets are off but for well mapped and planned dives I know my bailout turn point before I start the dive. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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