It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register for free click here
Rebreather World
       

Go Back   Rebreather World Rebreather Training CCR & SCR Rebreather Training TDI / SDI

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 17th August 2010, 08:00   #1 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
BlueLabelDiving's Avatar

 
Meg, Inspo, homebuilt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thailand, Maldives
Posts: 106
BlueLabelDiving is an unknown quantity at this point
TDI CCR CAVE outlines

Hi all,

First of all I'd like to say that this is nothing spectacularly new under the sun. TDI has had full cave outlines for more than a decade and was one of the first agencies to adopt CCR standards under its' umbrella. However, in the recent years, more and more cave divers started to see the benefits of taking rebreathers along in caves. Moreover, heaps of CCR divers are seeing cave diving as their next step and would like to take their unit to the darker side.

Taking a CCR into a cave is possible if you have followed a CCR diver course and a cave course from any recognized agency. With those two cards, you are good to go.

The same goes for CCR instructors carrying a full cave instructor license; they can teach cave courses on a specific unit as long as the student is certified on that specific unit.

Why combined CCR-CAVE outlines?

- Recently, other agencies have been giving out cards combining both CCR and cave. Resulting in some local cave communities raising the bar and demanding cave divers, wishing to take their unit, show a CCR-CAVE card prior to jumping into their local pit.

- Another point brought up by other CCR-CAVE instructors is the liability; are they covered in case of lawsuit / mishap with a student on a CCR in a cave? The training agency says yes, but will your insurance share that same generosity?

- Lastly, taking a CCR into an overhead environment asks from the diver minor considerations which can have major consequences if not planned properly;

Officially, a MOD 1 diver without prior decompression training, can, after doing a full cave course on OC, venture as far into the cave as he/she wants to on his/her CCR, this, as long as he/she does not venture into deco and respects the rule of thirds.

This is where the minor/major adjustments arise;

Bail out to OC at the deepest point of entry;

- will the bail out gas keep the diver out of deco all the way?
- will the diver have enough OC gas to make it back out in case of a CO2 hit (and his/her SAC triples)?

These are points taken into considerations in the combined TDI CCR-CAVE outlines.

The outlines follow closely both TDI CCR AND CAVE standards, but add small details with regards to equipment, bail out procedures and CCR specific cave skills.

I'd like to hear your feedback.

Credits also go to Mat Partridge from Pro-tech Dive College for his input.

You can find a copy of these outlines at TDI CCR CAVE Outlines

or send me a mail ben@bluelabeldiving.com

ATB,

Ben Reymenants

CCR-CAVE-TMX

bluelabeldiving.com
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 17th August 2010, 13:24   #2 (permalink)
Train Wrecked Guppy ;)
 
brockbr's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 624
brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of brockbr has much to be proud of
Send a message via AIM to brockbr
Re: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

Quote: (Originally Posted by BlueLabelDiving) View Original Post
Hi all,

First of all I'd like to say that this is nothing spectacularly new under the sun. TDI has had full cave outlines for more than a decade and was one of the first agencies to adopt CCR standards under its' umbrella. However, in the recent years, more and more cave divers started to see the benefits of taking rebreathers along in caves. Moreover, heaps of CCR divers are seeing cave diving as their next step and would like to take their unit to the darker side.
Just some constructive questions:
For Level 1
1) Why have a pre-req of MOD II, but specifically disallow deco in Level 1? Why not make the pre-req MOD I?

2) What is the max penetration limit based on (60m / 180ft)?

3) The requirements do not state of penetration is based on the tie-in point, or the ascent to open open/entry. Applying this penetration to Jackson blue would mean nerver making it to the chimney.

4) The course isn't mCCR and eCCR specific, nor is there a requirement for a HUD on the mCCR. In a low/no viz situation, is Level 1 addressing the basics for safe CCR Cave diving?

5) I don't see any mention of springs vs siphons, or other types of cave structures.

For Level 2
6) Based on standards, a Level 2 CCR diver could penetrate to 1/2 of their OC bailout. Using this concept, a diver could get thousands of feet into shallow, Mexican caves while still meeting the bailout requirements. I'm curious why "time to exit" doesn't become a factor in training for survival. The longer the exit takes, the more stress is incurred, and the higher the probability of a compounded problem.

Why not adopt a training approach of n-number minute exit?

For Level 3
7) There is now talk about cylinder management and bailout management in teams. I am NOT speaking of Team Bailout - More along the lines of bailout cylinder management on exit and gas sharing.
__________________
iDeco Pro - iPhone Decompression Planning
iDeco Pro

Last edited by brockbr; 17th August 2010 at 14:22..
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2010, 00:51   #3 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
BlueLabelDiving's Avatar

 
Meg, Inspo, homebuilt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thailand, Maldives
Posts: 106
BlueLabelDiving is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr) View Original Post
Just some constructive questions:
For Level 1
1) Why have a pre-req of MOD II, but specifically disallow deco in Level 1? Why not make the pre-req MOD I?
BECAUSE THERE IS A CHANCE THE DIVER GOES INTO DECO ON OC, WHILE STILL FINE ON HIS CCR
2) What is the max penetration limit based on (60m / 180ft)?
SAME STANDARDS AS CAVERN/INTRO/FULL (INDEED, CAVERN= 60M/180FT)
3) The requirements do not state of penetration is based on the tie-in point, or the ascent to open open/entry. Applying this penetration to Jackson blue would mean nerver making it to the chimney.
TRUE, AND THERE ARE MANY MORE EXCEPTIONS WORLDWIDE, HENCE THE LIMIT FOR CAVERN IS SET IN DISTANCE-TO-THE-EXIT. ALLOWING DIRECT ACCESS TO THE SURFACE
4) The course isn't mCCR and eCCR specific, nor is there a requirement for a HUD on the mCCR. In a low/no viz situation, is Level 1 addressing the basics for safe CCR Cave diving?
GOOD POINT. THE REASON WHY WE WROTE THESE OUTLINES IS TO FOCUS ONLY ON THE CCR-CAVE SPECIFIC DETAILS. THE REST CAN BE FOUND IN THE TDI GENERIC CAVE OR CCR OUTLINES

5) I don't see any mention of springs vs siphons, or other types of cave structures.
THISE ARE DIFFERENT COURSES AND DIFFERENT SPECIALTIES (SUMP, SIDEMOUNT) I'M SURE SOMEONE IN THE UK WILL COME UP WITH THOSE SOON?
For Level 2
6) Based on standards, a Level 2 CCR diver could penetrate to 1/2 of their OC bailout. Using this concept, a diver could get thousands of feet into shallow, Mexican caves while still meeting the bailout requirements. I'm curious why "time to exit" doesn't become a factor in training for survival. The longer the exit takes, the more stress is incurred, and the higher the probability of a compounded problem.
I TOTALLY AGREE, BUT SHOULD A CAVE DIVER VENTURE THOUSANDS OF FEET INTO A CAVE IF HE/SHE CANNOT SAFELY/SANELY EXIT ON BAIL OUT? MEXICO HAS SUPERB CONDITIONS, HOW WOULD YOU LIMIT UK DIVERS IN COLD/LOW VIZ CONDITIONS?


For Level 3
7) There is now talk about cylinder management and bailout management in teams. I am NOT speaking of Team Bailout - More along the lines of bailout cylinder management on exit and gas sharing.
INDEED, THIS IS WERE THE DIVER IS ALLOWED TO APPLY MORE COMPLEX NAVIGATION, FURTHER AND CAN GO INTO DECO, HENCE THE NEED TO PINPOINT GAS NEEDS.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope you understand that we could not combine all ccr and full cave standards under 1 outline without having to submit a 40 page document. Points that are not in these unique outlines should be referred to in the generic TDI CCR or TDI CAVE outlines


PLEASE NOTE THAT THE LINK BELOW HAS BEEN DISABLED. THESE ARE UNIQUE OUTLINES AND NOT FOR PUBLIC VIEWING.
YOU CAN STILL PM ME

ATB, BEN
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 18th August 2010, 11:16   #4 (permalink)
mjm
RBW Member
 
mjm's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: sydney
Posts: 12
mjm is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

not sure if this is relevant but teaching a TDI cave course involving CCR all divers must be on same brand/type of rebreather. I believe the reason behind this is to not disract from cave course to compairing units.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2011, 01:46   #5 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
BlueLabelDiving's Avatar

 
Meg, Inspo, homebuilt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Thailand, Maldives
Posts: 106
BlueLabelDiving is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: TDI CCR CAVE outlines

Quote: (Originally Posted by mjm) View Original Post
not sure if this is relevant but teaching a TDI cave course involving CCR all divers must be on same brand/type of rebreather. I believe the reason behind this is to not disract from cave course to compairing units.
You are right in that the generic TDI CCR standards do dictate this. Practically, this is a niche market and asking the instructor to own a unit/instr ticket for all ccr's out there would be quite cumbersome to say the least. Agreed with HQ was that the instructor should be at least on a similar type unit, using universal QC's, gasses etc. so emergency drills/ scenario's can be executed in a non-unit specific way. Personally I believe this is the way forward in creating a cross-training incentive between instructor and student on different units.

Best, Ben
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT. The time now is 13:06.


RebreatherWorld.Com 2005 - 2013
Rebreather World, RBW and the Rebreather World Logo are Trademarks
All rights reserved, no republishing of content without written permission.
By using this website you have agreed to our Terms & Conditions of Use

free counters

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254