Submatix CCR 100 SMS

Stephane · 27th November 2006, 11:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

did no-one notice that the 2 pages not necessarily belong together??? :-)

Are you sure Paul?

This is not what I see ...

Quote:

anyway, you KNOW that a CMF - based breather can NOT be CE'd according to a correct interpretation of the 14143

paul

Impossible is not an Italian word ...

**jmurba** · 27th November 2006, 14:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

did no-one notice that the 2 pages not necessarily belong together??? :-)

I tried to contact mr Guinderi several times, but not possible!

anyway, you KNOW that a CMF - based breather can NOT be CE'd according to a correct interpretation of the 14143

paul

Dear Paul,

just qualifiy your unit as a scr with a shutable premix needle valve and an ADV on the same MP line , equippe the breather with a kiss to be opened only at 6 m for deco.

So you will have a legal 2 gases semi close rebreather that every body will use kiss stype only turning on a tap, without any modification !!!!

The kiss style duver wil shut the premix needle valve keeping active only the ADV (diluant ) and turn on the o2 tap and dive kiss....

one could also imagine a double gas scr rebreather with on each side one shuttable needle valve and 2 manual gas addition buttons

everybiody woul add and adv on the dil side and shut the dil needle valve and put oxygen in the second thanks to fly it kiss !!!!!

there are so many ways to go rounf the law.

I really think that this is what submatix did at least with their firse certified version, i mean making a scr and letting folks know how to convert it only placing a disk in one of the regulator to fix the o2 mp.

An other way of qualifiying a kiss would be make rebreather with a simple o2 injection system (eccr) and a kiss injection system
the kissers would diconnect the solenoid and keed the oxymeters and the kiss valve....

If I was a kiss maker belive me i wold qualify it as a scr .

regards

jean mi

***schford*** · 27th November 2006, 16:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

anyway, you KNOW that a CMF - based breather can NOT be CE'd according to a correct interpretation of the 14143

paul

That is my understanding too after talking to a couple of knowledgable people about it in the UK - which is why I am not sure it can be CE certified

leptonyx · 28th November 2006, 08:54

Excellent

Who would have thought that this could start such a "bitch-slapping war":

in the red corner: the "know-it-alls"

in the blue corner: the "don't-believe-a-thing" people

Reminds me of the time when someone proposed the world might be a globe.

"Look, here are my calculations... but no, surely the world CANNOT be a globe... but..my calculcations...oh, but I made MY OWN calculations, and they sare it is a block, has to be a block, will always be a block..."

Carry on, folks, I insist!

Marc T · 28th November 2006, 09:14

5.7.1 Inspired partial pressure of oxygen

The apparatus shall under all conditions of use specified by the manufacturer automatically maintain

I think the important thing is here, the CMF system do that in mCCR as he does in SCR under conditions of use bla bla bla.....Keep it simple

Ben Field · 28th November 2006, 09:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino Corp.)

Impossible is not an Italian word ...

From my experience of working with Italian companies I can confirm that nothing is impossible.... it just depends on who you know, what they owe to whom and how much they are willing to give them to get it.

Its a shame the process is so expensive, otherwise it would be in the interests of Jetsam and the other KISS Style CCR makers to have a new CE number and process created for certifying their products (I believe the UK represents one of Jetsams biggest markets yet they don't have CE) We might all agree CE isn't really of much interest to us but it does make everything that currently isn't "above board"

Back to Submatics and Aquatek Voyager... both look like very nice products, I've had a chance to pull both apart at Dive Shows but while the design and construction is nice they (to my knowledge/up to know) have left adequate (IMVHO) triple redundat PPO2 monitoring to the consumer to add. To my mind this is a failing that could be easily fixed.

I wonder if the SCR/CCR CE approval debate is what has kept their PPO2 monitor as a minor feature?

I suspect that until they sort this out to the average (highly suspicious) divers mind Jetsam will continue to sell more rebreathers.

BEN

TR300 · 28th November 2006, 09:56

Hi Ben,

yes, the Aquatec Voyager has also the CE for KISS-Style (I remember the new Voyager 2 is a KISS-Style only rebreather).

In my view, if you describe it in full, what the diver has todo and inform him that everything is dangerous then the verification can occur.

The CE mark (and late the EN) is a rule how the customer has to get all information he need. The manufacterer has to look for good materials, EMV, ...
as a ISO 900x certify. The test on rebreathers are just to verify that the thing is in the specs.

So if the test goes with 2.5 l/min metabilsm the manufacteur can describe that then the O2 flow has to rise to e.g. 2.4 l/min. Is all up to the description. If the diver do this then later (or use other orificies on a Dolphin SCR, or switch of the electronis on a eCCR) or use the 0,8 l/min flow is up to the user. The manufacteur has just to say "never do this".

I think without the testdescription it's not easy to verfiy

my 2 cent

Holger

***schford*** · 28th November 2006, 09:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T)

5.7.1 Inspired partial pressure of oxygen

The apparatus shall under all conditions of use specified by the manufacturer automatically maintain

I think the important thing is here, the CMF system do that in mCCR as he does in SCR under conditions of use bla bla bla.....Keep it simple

Thats interesting - not how it was explained to me - eg I was told that it had to be able to maintain ppo2 and varying rates of o2 consumption to get its CE mark.

**jmurba** · 28th November 2006, 10:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by leptonyx)

Excellent

Who would have thought that this could start such a "bitch-slapping war":

in the red corner: the "know-it-alls"

in the blue corner: the "don't-believe-a-thing" people

Reminds me of the time when someone proposed the world might be a globe.

"Look, here are my calculations... but no, surely the world CANNOT be a globe... but..my calculcations...oh, but I made MY OWN calculations, and they sare it is a block, has to be a block, will always be a block..."

Carry on, folks, I insist!

The fact that earth is a globe is a scientific fact, law is not an exact science
things can be interpreted.
A kiss can maintain a breathable ppo2 but only during a certain time at a relatively constant depth , after period the diver must add o2 or dil flush according to his ppo2 readings, so it is not automatic.

one will think the norm only require the ppo2 to be naintained at a breathable level for a reasonnable time , the others will say that the norm is saying that de ppo2 must remain breathable all dive long. automaticaly....

the interpretation of this norm has nothing to see with the old earth shape debate.

one can perfectly say that the kiss rebreather don't meet the norm requirement without beeing considerated as a stupid science negationist don't you think ?

I also think, as a lawyer that the kiss style Rebreather's can't meet this stupid norm requirement, it is just a law opinion bebause the goal of the law is to force manufacturer to produce Rebreather that can support life on an unconscious diver

this goal is maybe stupid but this his the rigth interpretation of this law

EC certification is there to bettre the safety, in case someone die with a non EC rebreather sold in europe on his back what do you think that the judge will say

The judge will see that the rebreather has no safety certification and will sentence the seller of this Rebreather for unvoluntary homicide !!!

The judge are there to protect the weak conumers that will be considerated as victim of bad companies selling rebreather that does not meet CE safety requerements .

For the moment nothing happend thanks to god beacause cmf rebreathers are good , but we know that kiss system is safe, the judge not !!!!

as for the market condition , i am sure that when a lethal accident will take place with a non ceretified kiss style rebreather the EC certified manufacturers will flame the kiss style maker, seller or instructor....

When I see picture on your site with photos of megalodon trainning sessions in cavalaire , I say to myself thanks to god nothing happened, cause in case of an accident, everysoby will be in front of the court to face pennl french law...

if the submatix has gained this certification it is great for them , I hope the pother manufacturer of kiss style rebreather will pass it but i doubt they will be able to....

let'ssent E mails to submatix to ask if they have a certification for CCR kiss stype diving, and publish the response and we will see.

regards

jean michel

regards

jean mi

paulraymaekers · 28th November 2006, 10:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Thats interesting - not how it was explained to me - eg I was told that it had to be able to maintain ppo2 and varying rates of o2 consumption to get its CE mark.

nor to me!

when I asked the company that does the CE-testing for the britisch units to do the testing for the rEvo, it was.. definitaly impossible, although they really wanted to do it :-) (I got a rought quote for what it was going to cost at the end). They told me simply the unit could not comply, unless I added an automatic system that would add something in case of PPO2 less then 0.2 or higher then 1.6

to leptonyx: it has nothing to do with "bitch-slapping war": no-one has argued abouth the quality of units!

if some-one can direct me to a company that can CE the rEvo like it is (mCCR), please do!!

paul

27th November 2006, 11:41	#31 (permalink)
Stephane Hey! Ho! Let's go! Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Nantes - France Posts: 725	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) did no-one notice that the 2 pages not necessarily belong together??? :-) Are you sure Paul? This is not what I see ... Quote: anyway, you KNOW that a CMF - based breather can NOT be CE'd according to a correct interpretation of the 14143 paul Impossible is not an Italian word ... __________________ Stéphane Hammer-rEvo powered!
(Online)

27th November 2006, 14:02	#32 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 672	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) did no-one notice that the 2 pages not necessarily belong together??? :-) I tried to contact mr Guinderi several times, but not possible! anyway, you KNOW that a CMF - based breather can NOT be CE'd according to a correct interpretation of the 14143 paul Dear Paul, just qualifiy your unit as a scr with a shutable premix needle valve and an ADV on the same MP line , equippe the breather with a kiss to be opened only at 6 m for deco. So you will have a legal 2 gases semi close rebreather that every body will use kiss stype only turning on a tap, without any modification !!!! The kiss style duver wil shut the premix needle valve keeping active only the ADV (diluant ) and turn on the o2 tap and dive kiss.... one could also imagine a double gas scr rebreather with on each side one shuttable needle valve and 2 manual gas addition buttons everybiody woul add and adv on the dil side and shut the dil needle valve and put oxygen in the second thanks to fly it kiss !!!!! there are so many ways to go rounf the law. I really think that this is what submatix did at least with their firse certified version, i mean making a scr and letting folks know how to convert it only placing a disk in one of the regulator to fix the o2 mp. An other way of qualifiying a kiss would be make rebreather with a simple o2 injection system (eccr) and a kiss injection system the kissers would diconnect the solenoid and keed the oxymeters and the kiss valve.... If I was a kiss maker belive me i wold qualify it as a scr . regards jean mi
(Offline)

27th November 2006, 16:10	#33 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,662	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) anyway, you KNOW that a CMF - based breather can NOT be CE'd according to a correct interpretation of the 14143 paul That is my understanding too after talking to a couple of knowledgable people about it in the UK - which is why I am not sure it can be CE certified __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

28th November 2006, 08:54	#34 (permalink)
leptonyx New Member Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other SCR Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Antarctica & Svalbard Posts: 54	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Excellent Who would have thought that this could start such a "bitch-slapping war": in the red corner: the "know-it-alls" in the blue corner: the "don't-believe-a-thing" people Reminds me of the time when someone proposed the world might be a globe. "Look, here are my calculations... but no, surely the world CANNOT be a globe... but..my calculcations...oh, but I made MY OWN calculations, and they sare it is a block, has to be a block, will always be a block..." Carry on, folks, I insist!
(Offline)

28th November 2006, 09:14	#35 (permalink)
Marc T hell is in the details Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: FRANCE Carcassonne Posts: 440	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS 5.7.1 Inspired partial pressure of oxygen The apparatus shall under all conditions of use specified by the manufacturer automatically maintain I think the important thing is here, the CMF system do that in mCCR as he does in SCR under conditions of use bla bla bla.....Keep it simple
(Offline)

28th November 2006, 09:18	#36 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,485	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino Corp.) Impossible is not an Italian word ... From my experience of working with Italian companies I can confirm that nothing is impossible.... it just depends on who you know, what they owe to whom and how much they are willing to give them to get it. Its a shame the process is so expensive, otherwise it would be in the interests of Jetsam and the other KISS Style CCR makers to have a new CE number and process created for certifying their products (I believe the UK represents one of Jetsams biggest markets yet they don't have CE) We might all agree CE isn't really of much interest to us but it does make everything that currently isn't "above board" Back to Submatics and Aquatek Voyager... both look like very nice products, I've had a chance to pull both apart at Dive Shows but while the design and construction is nice they (to my knowledge/up to know) have left adequate (IMVHO) triple redundat PPO2 monitoring to the consumer to add. To my mind this is a failing that could be easily fixed. I wonder if the SCR/CCR CE approval debate is what has kept their PPO2 monitor as a minor feature? I suspect that until they sort this out to the average (highly suspicious) divers mind Jetsam will continue to sell more rebreathers. BEN __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
(Online)

28th November 2006, 09:56	#37 (permalink)
TR300 Home of the TR300 Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Dolphin Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Weinheim, Germany Posts: 182	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Hi Ben, yes, the Aquatec Voyager has also the CE for KISS-Style (I remember the new Voyager 2 is a KISS-Style only rebreather). In my view, if you describe it in full, what the diver has todo and inform him that everything is dangerous then the verification can occur. The CE mark (and late the EN) is a rule how the customer has to get all information he need. The manufacterer has to look for good materials, EMV, ... as a ISO 900x certify. The test on rebreathers are just to verify that the thing is in the specs. So if the test goes with 2.5 l/min metabilsm the manufacteur can describe that then the O2 flow has to rise to e.g. 2.4 l/min. Is all up to the description. If the diver do this then later (or use other orificies on a Dolphin SCR, or switch of the electronis on a eCCR) or use the 0,8 l/min flow is up to the user. The manufacteur has just to say "never do this". I think without the testdescription it's not easy to verfiy my 2 cent Holger __________________ If it makes bubbles it means its brocken Visit: www.tr300.com, Missions: www.rebreatherteam.de
(Offline)

28th November 2006, 09:57	#38 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,662	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc T) 5.7.1 Inspired partial pressure of oxygen The apparatus shall under all conditions of use specified by the manufacturer automatically maintain I think the important thing is here, the CMF system do that in mCCR as he does in SCR under conditions of use bla bla bla.....Keep it simple Thats interesting - not how it was explained to me - eg I was told that it had to be able to maintain ppo2 and varying rates of o2 consumption to get its CE mark. __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

28th November 2006, 10:17	#39 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 672	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by leptonyx) Excellent Who would have thought that this could start such a "bitch-slapping war": in the red corner: the "know-it-alls" in the blue corner: the "don't-believe-a-thing" people Reminds me of the time when someone proposed the world might be a globe. "Look, here are my calculations... but no, surely the world CANNOT be a globe... but..my calculcations...oh, but I made MY OWN calculations, and they sare it is a block, has to be a block, will always be a block..." Carry on, folks, I insist! The fact that earth is a globe is a scientific fact, law is not an exact science things can be interpreted. A kiss can maintain a breathable ppo2 but only during a certain time at a relatively constant depth , after period the diver must add o2 or dil flush according to his ppo2 readings, so it is not automatic. one will think the norm only require the ppo2 to be naintained at a breathable level for a reasonnable time , the others will say that the norm is saying that de ppo2 must remain breathable all dive long. automaticaly.... the interpretation of this norm has nothing to see with the old earth shape debate. one can perfectly say that the kiss rebreather don't meet the norm requirement without beeing considerated as a stupid science negationist don't you think ? I also think, as a lawyer that the kiss style Rebreather's can't meet this stupid norm requirement, it is just a law opinion bebause the goal of the law is to force manufacturer to produce Rebreather that can support life on an unconscious diver this goal is maybe stupid but this his the rigth interpretation of this law EC certification is there to bettre the safety, in case someone die with a non EC rebreather sold in europe on his back what do you think that the judge will say The judge will see that the rebreather has no safety certification and will sentence the seller of this Rebreather for unvoluntary homicide !!! The judge are there to protect the weak conumers that will be considerated as victim of bad companies selling rebreather that does not meet CE safety requerements . For the moment nothing happend thanks to god beacause cmf rebreathers are good , but we know that kiss system is safe, the judge not !!!! as for the market condition , i am sure that when a lethal accident will take place with a non ceretified kiss style rebreather the EC certified manufacturers will flame the kiss style maker, seller or instructor.... When I see picture on your site with photos of megalodon trainning sessions in cavalaire , I say to myself thanks to god nothing happened, cause in case of an accident, everysoby will be in front of the court to face pennl french law... if the submatix has gained this certification it is great for them , I hope the pother manufacturer of kiss style rebreather will pass it but i doubt they will be able to.... let'ssent E mails to submatix to ask if they have a certification for CCR kiss stype diving, and publish the response and we will see. regards jean michel regards jean mi
(Offline)

28th November 2006, 10:23	#40 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,384	Re: Submatix CCR 100 SMS Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Thats interesting - not how it was explained to me - eg I was told that it had to be able to maintain ppo2 and varying rates of o2 consumption to get its CE mark. nor to me! when I asked the company that does the CE-testing for the britisch units to do the testing for the rEvo, it was.. definitaly impossible, although they really wanted to do it :-) (I got a rought quote for what it was going to cost at the end). They told me simply the unit could not comply, unless I added an automatic system that would add something in case of PPO2 less then 0.2 or higher then 1.6 to leptonyx: it has nothing to do with "bitch-slapping war": no-one has argued abouth the quality of units! if some-one can direct me to a company that can CE the rEvo like it is (mCCR), please do!! paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials... Last edited by paulraymaekers : 28th November 2006 at 10:27.
(Online)

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