Submatix

craig daniel · 24th March 2008, 14:45

This unit is rated to 100M is there anyone taking it anywhere near to this depth?

Guilhem · 24th March 2008, 19:59

I know of one person who does. I personally wouldn't, as I've been warned about the scrubber ability to handle load of CO2 at depth where gas is denser. Scrubber excepted, I don't see why the unit couldn't be dived that deep. At the same time, I'm at the very first steps of my learning CCR path

.

andrespp · 24th March 2008, 20:25

The Submatix is CE certified up to 100 m.

h ttp://www.submatix.net/rebreathers/rebreathers.htmL#ccr
However, as delivered from the manufacturer the IP of the 1st O2 stage is 10 bars, so if you want go beyond -80 m, the IP needs to be modified.

As for the scrubber, the only issue I am aware of, is that because its rather small capacity (1,8 Kg if I am not wrong, vs typical 2,2-2.4 of others CCR), deep dives are somehow limited in time.

Guilhem · 25th March 2008, 08:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp)

As for the scrubber, the only issue I am aware of, is that because its rather small capacity (1,8 Kg if I am not wrong, vs typical 2,2-2.4 of others CCR), deep dives are somehow limited in time.

It's not necessarily a matter of total allowable time, as 3 hours is plenty. The question is more about the ability of a small capacity scrubber to work well under load when used at great depth. The deeper you go, the greater the density of the gas, hence, the more molecules of gas are packed inbetween each each piece of sorb. From what I've read, the inert gas behaves as a barrier reducing the possible interaction between CO2 and sorb, thus reducing the effectiveness of the scrubber. This effect is growing as detph increases. Now, take this with a grain of salt, as I'm far from being experienced enough in CCR to have tested this at these depths - and in fact, I know some people who do dive a sub at these depths (with fresh sorb of course).

Mark Chase · 25th March 2008, 08:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp)

The Submatix is CE certified up to 100 m.

h ttp://www.submatix.net/rebreathers/rebreathers.htmL#ccr
However, as delivered from the manufacturer the IP of the 1st O2 stage is 10 bars, so if you want go beyond -80 m, the IP needs to be modified.

As for the scrubber, the only issue I am aware of, is that because its rather small capacity (1,8 Kg if I am not wrong, vs typical 2,2-2.4 of others CCR), deep dives are somehow limited in time.

Isnt the IP deturmined by the 02 usage rate of the diver?

Has it got a fixed oraface or does it have a needle valve?

If its a fixed oraface like the KISS then you will need at least 11 bar to go to 100m. Beyound that you will need to alter the oraface size and customise the first stage spring to give a much higher IP

I am reasnobly certain the CE mark has absolutly nothing to do with its abuility to go to X depth, so id ignore that issue.

ATB

Mark

paulraymaekers · 25th March 2008, 08:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Isnt the IP deturmined by the 02 usage rate of the diver?

Has it got a fixed oraface or does it have a needle valve?

If its a fixed oraface like the KISS then you will need at least 11 bar to go to 100m. Beyound that you will need to alter the oraface size and customise the first stage spring to give a much higher IP

I am reasnobly certain the CE mark has absolutly nothing to do with its abuility to go to X depth, so id ignore that issue.

ATB

Mark

there's only one way to compare it with other scrubbers:

show me the graph of the CO2 output during the CE test:

1.6l/min CO2, 40l/min RVM, 40m depth, at 4° celcius: how long does it take to break trough?

paul

Guilhem · 25th March 2008, 10:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Isnt the IP deturmined by the 02 usage rate of the diver?

Has it got a fixed oraface or does it have a needle valve?

It is fitted with a needle valve. The IP of the O2 first stage is fixed, and set in factory to 10 bars, as can be seen on this image taken from the user manual.

I suspect the modification to reach 100 m is a matter of cranking up the IP pressure and probably changing that little red cap so it reads "100m".

Mark Chase · 25th March 2008, 16:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Guilhem)

It is fitted with a needle valve. The IP of the O2 first stage is fixed, and set in factory to 10 bars, as can be seen on this image taken from the user manual.

I suspect the modification to reach 100 m is a matter of cranking up the IP pressure and probably changing that little red cap so it reads "100m".

Cool thanks for that.

It makes sense now because I am running 11.5 bar with the standard KISS oraface and thats just to give me normal degridation on the PP02 during the dive. I reckon I could get away with 12bar but Id rather have to top up than flush down.

Strange they rate it to a 100 but limit it to 80??

ATB

Mark

andrespp · 26th March 2008, 07:27

My mistake on my first reply. The first paragraph should be re-wordered as:

Submatix is CE certified.

IAW mfr., it can be taken down to -100m.

And regarding the specific question of knowing is someone is going -100 m with it, I only can say that I have heard of that here in Spain, but it is just something I have been told.

As for Paul question, I have not seen the tests results of scrubber duration on CE conditions for this particular unit neither.

However, CE testing simulates -40m, not sure how this correlates with the performance of the scrubber at deeper conditions as f.e. -100. I

Regards,

paulraymaekers · 26th March 2008, 09:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp)

However, CE testing simulates -40m, not sure how this correlates with the performance of the scrubber at deeper conditions as f.e. -100. I

Regards,

it gives a fair good indication, because this way you can compare it with other breathers that work well at that depth

problem with small scrubbers: in warm water, relaxed diving, no current etc.. the small scrubber will also work for some time

but in cold water, and hard work: when the sh*t hits the ... ... you're dead!

paul

ps: remember that scrubber performance is FAR from lineair with sorb quantity!! half the volume can mean only 1/4 of the performance, or worse!

24th March 2008, 14:45	#1 (permalink)
craig daniel New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: cornwall england Posts: 24	Submatix This unit is rated to 100M is there anyone taking it anywhere near to this depth?
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24th March 2008, 19:59	#2 (permalink)
Guilhem New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: South-East France Posts: 55	Re: Submatix I know of one person who does. I personally wouldn't, as I've been warned about the scrubber ability to handle load of CO2 at depth where gas is denser. Scrubber excepted, I don't see why the unit couldn't be dived that deep. At the same time, I'm at the very first steps of my learning CCR path .
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24th March 2008, 20:25	#3 (permalink)
andrespp New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2007 Location: Cádiz (Spain) Posts: 44	Re: Submatix The Submatix is CE certified up to 100 m. h ttp://www.submatix.net/rebreathers/rebreathers.htmL#ccr However, as delivered from the manufacturer the IP of the 1st O2 stage is 10 bars, so if you want go beyond -80 m, the IP needs to be modified. As for the scrubber, the only issue I am aware of, is that because its rather small capacity (1,8 Kg if I am not wrong, vs typical 2,2-2.4 of others CCR), deep dives are somehow limited in time.
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25th March 2008, 08:00	#4 (permalink)
Guilhem New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: South-East France Posts: 55	Re: Submatix Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp) As for the scrubber, the only issue I am aware of, is that because its rather small capacity (1,8 Kg if I am not wrong, vs typical 2,2-2.4 of others CCR), deep dives are somehow limited in time. It's not necessarily a matter of total allowable time, as 3 hours is plenty. The question is more about the ability of a small capacity scrubber to work well under load when used at great depth. The deeper you go, the greater the density of the gas, hence, the more molecules of gas are packed inbetween each each piece of sorb. From what I've read, the inert gas behaves as a barrier reducing the possible interaction between CO2 and sorb, thus reducing the effectiveness of the scrubber. This effect is growing as detph increases. Now, take this with a grain of salt, as I'm far from being experienced enough in CCR to have tested this at these depths - and in fact, I know some people who do dive a sub at these depths (with fresh sorb of course).
(Offline)

25th March 2008, 08:12	#5 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,407	Re: Submatix Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp) The Submatix is CE certified up to 100 m. h ttp://www.submatix.net/rebreathers/rebreathers.htmL#ccr However, as delivered from the manufacturer the IP of the 1st O2 stage is 10 bars, so if you want go beyond -80 m, the IP needs to be modified. As for the scrubber, the only issue I am aware of, is that because its rather small capacity (1,8 Kg if I am not wrong, vs typical 2,2-2.4 of others CCR), deep dives are somehow limited in time. Isnt the IP deturmined by the 02 usage rate of the diver? Has it got a fixed oraface or does it have a needle valve? If its a fixed oraface like the KISS then you will need at least 11 bar to go to 100m. Beyound that you will need to alter the oraface size and customise the first stage spring to give a much higher IP I am reasnobly certain the CE mark has absolutly nothing to do with its abuility to go to X depth, so id ignore that issue. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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25th March 2008, 08:24	#6 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,339	Re: Submatix Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Isnt the IP deturmined by the 02 usage rate of the diver? Has it got a fixed oraface or does it have a needle valve? If its a fixed oraface like the KISS then you will need at least 11 bar to go to 100m. Beyound that you will need to alter the oraface size and customise the first stage spring to give a much higher IP I am reasnobly certain the CE mark has absolutly nothing to do with its abuility to go to X depth, so id ignore that issue. ATB Mark there's only one way to compare it with other scrubbers: show me the graph of the CO2 output during the CE test: 1.6l/min CO2, 40l/min RVM, 40m depth, at 4° celcius: how long does it take to break trough? paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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25th March 2008, 10:28	#7 (permalink)
Guilhem New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: South-East France Posts: 55	Re: Submatix Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Isnt the IP deturmined by the 02 usage rate of the diver? Has it got a fixed oraface or does it have a needle valve? It is fitted with a needle valve. The IP of the O2 first stage is fixed, and set in factory to 10 bars, as can be seen on this image taken from the user manual. I suspect the modification to reach 100 m is a matter of cranking up the IP pressure and probably changing that little red cap so it reads "100m".
(Offline)

25th March 2008, 16:18	#8 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,407	Re: Submatix Quote: (Originally Posted by Guilhem) It is fitted with a needle valve. The IP of the O2 first stage is fixed, and set in factory to 10 bars, as can be seen on this image taken from the user manual. I suspect the modification to reach 100 m is a matter of cranking up the IP pressure and probably changing that little red cap so it reads "100m". Cool thanks for that. It makes sense now because I am running 11.5 bar with the standard KISS oraface and thats just to give me normal degridation on the PP02 during the dive. I reckon I could get away with 12bar but Id rather have to top up than flush down. Strange they rate it to a 100 but limit it to 80?? ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

26th March 2008, 07:27	#9 (permalink)
andrespp New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2007 Location: Cádiz (Spain) Posts: 44	Re: Submatix My mistake on my first reply. The first paragraph should be re-wordered as: Submatix is CE certified. IAW mfr., it can be taken down to -100m. And regarding the specific question of knowing is someone is going -100 m with it, I only can say that I have heard of that here in Spain, but it is just something I have been told. As for Paul question, I have not seen the tests results of scrubber duration on CE conditions for this particular unit neither. However, CE testing simulates -40m, not sure how this correlates with the performance of the scrubber at deeper conditions as f.e. -100. I Regards,
(Offline)

26th March 2008, 09:41	#10 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,339	Re: Submatix Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp) However, CE testing simulates -40m, not sure how this correlates with the performance of the scrubber at deeper conditions as f.e. -100. I Regards, it gives a fair good indication, because this way you can compare it with other breathers that work well at that depth problem with small scrubbers: in warm water, relaxed diving, no current etc.. the small scrubber will also work for some time but in cold water, and hard work: when the sh*t hits the ... ... you're dead! paul ps: remember that scrubber performance is FAR from lineair with sorb quantity!! half the volume can mean only 1/4 of the performance, or worse! __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
(Offline)

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