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New Submatix ECCR



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Old 16th August 2007, 17:33   #1 (permalink)
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New Submatix ECCR

At first glance you don't notice what it is. Just the familiar mCCR with double cells, and the double handy Oxyscan/booster assembly. Even a close look the braided (rather wound) cable protection does not reveal the jewel of engineering hiding between the scrubber and a bottle. A tiny black Delrin cylinder, much smaller than a Barry Miller torch, holds the secret, a lithium-polysomething powered solenoid with its logic.
Actually not much of logic, and that for good. Setpoint is not _set_ like you program the unit to do something, it only, by design, injects oxygen coming from a 2l/min constant mass flow orifice, when the ppO2 falls below 1.0 bar, and stops if it exceeds 1.2 bar. Parallel to the solenoid ( talk about perfection..) there is the familiar KISS-Flow through the tunable needlevalve.
There is no logic giving a false sense of security. Both cells, and the controller, are totally isolated from each other in terms of pressure, and power. The cells are next to immune to moisture, and placed so that their reading is an immediate one, coupled directly to the inhale hose.

You calibrate the sensors to air, as calibrating to oxygen could be dangerous in places where the percentage of oxygen is, ah..... arbitrarily. (With my experience from these sensors I can say they perform quite linearly)
One touch at the wet sensors, and the procedure starts with some numbers, then a cell millivolts reading, calibrate, do what you have to do, go diving.
No menues, no worry.
"Setpoint" stability was excellent. Diving was usual. Easy.

Much easier and more reassuring than a diving the YBOD or the italian clutterbox.
My only wish was to have slightly increased loop volume, as I tend to breath slow and a bit deeper.

Matthias
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Old 16th August 2007, 18:02   #2 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

Quote: (Originally Posted by MatV) View Original Post
At first glance you don't notice what it is. Just the familiar mCCR with double cells, and the double handy Oxyscan/booster assembly. Even a close look the braided (rather wound) cable protection does not reveal the jewel of engineering hiding between the scrubber and a bottle. A tiny black Delrin cylinder, much smaller than a Barry Miller torch, holds the secret, a lithium-polysomething powered solenoid with its logic.
Actually not much of logic, and that for good. Setpoint is not _set_ like you program the unit to do something, it only, by design, injects oxygen coming from a 2l/min constant mass flow orifice, when the ppO2 falls below 1.0 bar, and stops if it exceeds 1.2 bar. Parallel to the solenoid ( talk about perfection..) there is the familiar KISS-Flow through the tunable needlevalve.
There is no logic giving a false sense of security. Both cells, and the controller, are totally isolated from each other in terms of pressure, and power. The cells are next to immune to moisture, and placed so that their reading is an immediate one, coupled directly to the inhale hose.

You calibrate the sensors to air, as calibrating to oxygen could be dangerous in places where the percentage of oxygen is, ah..... arbitrarily. (With my experience from these sensors I can say they perform quite linearly)
One touch at the wet sensors, and the procedure starts with some numbers, then a cell millivolts reading, calibrate, do what you have to do, go diving.
No menues, no worry.
"Setpoint" stability was excellent. Diving was usual. Easy.

Much easier and more reassuring than a diving the YBOD or the italian clutterbox.
My only wish was to have slightly increased loop volume, as I tend to breath slow and a bit deeper.

Matthias
hello mathias, is the MP fix??

diving a solenoid together with an orifice is extremely relaxing, two of the Hybrid rebreathers (as we call them in rEvo jargon) are beiing dived for some time now, with great satisfaction!

you can change from pure mCCR with oxigen parachute (setpoint to 0.4) over hybrid (orifice plus setpoint at dive setpoint) to purely ECCR (plug on the orifice and removing the cap of the oxigen first stage) for depths over 100m

what happens at the surface, if solenoid injects below 1.0 and only stops at 1.2...

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Old 16th August 2007, 22:04   #3 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

Cal should always be conducted near to the operating range of the instrument. This come from 2 years running a safety critical test facility with calibration traceable to national standards.

This bollox about cal to air is all well and good, but the offset errors with a minor calibration issue will be dis-proportionate.
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Old 17th August 2007, 22:05   #4 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

[quote=enkelkijken;131363]hello mathias, is the MP fix??

diving a solenoid together with an orifice is extremely relaxing, two of the Hybrid rebreathers (as we call them in rEvo jargon) are beiing dived for some time now, with great satisfaction!

you can change from pure mCCR with oxigen parachute (setpoint to 0.4) over hybrid (orifice plus setpoint at dive setpoint) to purely ECCR (plug on the orifice and removing the cap of the oxigen first stage) for depths over 100m

what happens at the surface, if solenoid injects below 1.0 and only stops at 1.2...


Well it vents gas. Controlled by a 2l/min orifice.

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Old 17th August 2007, 23:30   #5 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

Quote: (Originally Posted by MatV) View Original Post
At first glance you don't notice what it is. Just the familiar mCCR with double cells, and the double handy Oxyscan/booster assembly. Even a close look the braided (rather wound) cable protection does not reveal the jewel of engineering hiding between the scrubber and a bottle. A tiny black Delrin cylinder, much smaller than a Barry Miller torch, holds the secret, a lithium-polysomething powered solenoid with its logic.
Actually not much of logic, and that for good. Setpoint is not _set_ like you program the unit to do something, it only, by design, injects oxygen coming from a 2l/min constant mass flow orifice, when the ppO2 falls below 1.0 bar, and stops if it exceeds 1.2 bar. Parallel to the solenoid ( talk about perfection..) there is the familiar KISS-Flow through the tunable needlevalve.
There is no logic giving a false sense of security. Both cells, and the controller, are totally isolated from each other in terms of pressure, and power. The cells are next to immune to moisture, and placed so that their reading is an immediate one, coupled directly to the inhale hose.

You calibrate the sensors to air, as calibrating to oxygen could be dangerous in places where the percentage of oxygen is, ah..... arbitrarily. (With my experience from these sensors I can say they perform quite linearly)
One touch at the wet sensors, and the procedure starts with some numbers, then a cell millivolts reading, calibrate, do what you have to do, go diving.
No menues, no worry.
"Setpoint" stability was excellent. Diving was usual. Easy.

Much easier and more reassuring than a diving the YBOD or the italian clutterbox.
My only wish was to have slightly increased loop volume, as I tend to breath slow and a bit deeper.

Matthias

Nice thing to limit the flow to the controller to 2 l/min and have a KISS flow in parallell. Probably works really nice and prevents a runaway solenoid getting to wild.

Is there also some form of gas accumulator linked to this flow restriction upstream of the solenoid, like in other more or less similar solenoid designs.

But...calibration at po2 ~0.21 used for measurment/control ~po2 1-1.2 bar. That cannot be anything but questionable practise from a classic engineering perspective for this kind of thing. Given its generally bad to extrapolate the cal further than necessary.

How do you notice if a cell is current limited around the "setpoint" upon air-calibration.

But sure I guess the error would _usually_ go slightly in the "right" conservative direction, underestimating the po2 a little (hoping its stays at a little).

How about the sensors. Are they to be completely removed from the Rebreather for calibration? If someone would happen to do the "air" cal with the cells in the Rebreather with some extra O2 inside things could get very funky.

I did not understand how the dual sensors trigger extra O2 injection? Do they trigger it indipendently or do they still have to agree in some way?

How about the unusual case of more than 2l/min O2 consumption? Yes, very unlikely. Especially without the user noticing the odd conditions...
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Old 18th August 2007, 08:07   #6 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

An eCCR with only two cells...
No logic...
Cal in air...
Fixed setpoint anywhere between 1-1.2...
Hope the solenoid can keep up with a fairly fast ascent or you will find yourself the subject of a much more somber thread.


So who sold you on that load of bollox?!?!?!
More importantly, how many muppets will fall for it?
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Old 18th August 2007, 09:10   #7 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap) View Original Post
How about the unusual case of more than 2l/min O2 consumption? Yes, very unlikely. Especially without the user noticing the odd conditions...
The solenoid is in paralel of a KISS orifice, so total flowrate is about 2.8 ltr/min I guess. Your body cannot metabolized such a oxygène quantity.

No idea if it is sufficient in case of really fast ascent.

Always nice to read very creative and innovative rebreather divers

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Old 18th August 2007, 09:35   #8 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) View Original Post
An eCCR with only two cells...
No logic...
Cal in air...
Fixed setpoint anywhere between 1-1.2...
Hope the solenoid can keep up with a fairly fast ascent or you will find yourself the subject of a much more somber thread.


So who sold you on that load of bollox?!?!?!
More importantly, how many muppets will fall for it?


Only those who are buying it as a mCCR with a built in PP02 parachute system instead of buying a mCCR and adding some sort of controller later....

It's not a stupid idea as long as it's *absolutely understood* to be a mCCR with a "safety feature" added.


Dave
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Old 18th August 2007, 10:02   #9 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) View Original Post
Only those who are buying it as a mCCR with a built in PP02 parachute system instead of buying a mCCR and adding some sort of controller later....

It's not a stupid idea as long as it's *absolutely understood* to be a mCCR with a "safety feature" added.


Dave
thats not how i read it with the statement "Setpoint stability was excellent."

If it is an MCCR with a parachute then i do agree with you, a good way to look at it. But i dont think it is. Perhaps that can be clarified.
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Old 18th August 2007, 13:06   #10 (permalink)
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Re: New Submatix ECCR

Quote: (Originally Posted by jaap) View Original Post

>Is there also some form of gas accumulator linked to this flow restriction >upstream of the solenoid, like in other more or less similar solenoid designs.

Unnecessary. The Solenoid is tolerant to higher IPs and does not need workarounds.

>But...calibration at po2 ~0.21 used for measurment/control ~po2 1-1.2 >bar. That cannot be anything but questionable practise from a classic >engineering perspective for this kind of thing. Given its generally bad to >extrapolate the cal further than necessary.

What are the consequences if you calibrate at high setpoint when the oxygen you have is only 96 %?



>How do you notice if a cell is current limited around the "setpoint" upon >air-calibration.

Upon initiation, the cell voltage is read out and displayed. When a cell has a low value, replace it.
Now this is really the important point: Building a knowledge base how th sort out current limited cells. My understanding is, that it is not absolutely mandatory to calibtrate with standardized gases, but that there are more parameters to be observed, like initial voltage history, calibration speed, and such. It is a great pity that Will Smithers had been called by fate so early. He was in the process of doing a lot of evaluation in this respect.


>How about the sensors. Are they to be completely removed from the Rebreather for >calibration? If someone would happen to do the "air" cal with the cells in >the Rebreather with some extra O2 inside things could get very funky.

No need to remove them. They stay in the rebreather, but not within the loop ;-). That is one splendid design feature of the Submatix.


>I did not understand how the dual sensors trigger extra O2 injection? Do >they trigger it indipendently or do they still have to agree in some way?

No agreement. One of them will trigger.


>How about the unusual case of more than 2l/min O2 consumption? Yes, >very unlikely. Especially without the user noticing the odd >conditions...
That should read 2,8 l/min, because there is the CMF Flow.
Well in that case you use the booster to add up.

Greets,
Matthias
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