New Submatix ECCR

MatV · 19th August 2007, 13:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by brinoz)

The solenoid is in paralel of a KISS orifice, so total flowrate is about 2.8 ltr/min I guess. Your body cannot metabolized such a oxygène quantity.

No idea if it is sufficient in case of really fast ascent.

Do the math. If you ascend from 40 to 10 in 3 minutes, the ppO2 will drop from 1 bar to 0.5.

In case you do not add manually.
Now wasn't there something mentioned somewhere about manual addition?

BTW, when you look at the sensor display, you automatically have your thumb on the add switch.

Matthias

MatV · 19th August 2007, 13:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

thats not how i read it with the statement "Setpoint stability was excellent."

If it is an MCCR with a parachute then i do agree with you, a good way to look at it. But i dont think it is. Perhaps that can be clarified.

Setpoint stability is influenced by the degree of accuracy in the setting of the subphysiological flow.
I set mine with a flowmeter to 0.75, and this was an excellent match.

Matthias

MatV · 19th August 2007, 13:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

An eCCR with only two cells...
No logic...
Cal in air...
Fixed setpoint anywhere between 1-1.2...
Hope the solenoid can keep up with a fairly fast ascent or you will find yourself the subject of a much more somber thread.

Which logic prevents from 2 cells wrong voting as a majority?
IMHO, due to the placement the cells are legions more immune than in another europeen rebreather

Could you be more specific about your concern regarding the setpoint hysteresis? Any special concerns, from a physiological point of view? Decompressionwise?

Matthias

**Dave Sutton** · 19th August 2007, 15:18

Matthias is an old friend (How long now, Matthias? 10 years?), experienced homebuilder, and a good smart guy with a good head on his shoulders, so what he says has some merit.

The "confusion" exhibited here is, however, my primary objection to "parachute" systems: There is an ambiguity between if it's a "eCCR" or a "mCCR". In truth, the fact that ambiguity can exist at all is why I either dive a horse or a donkey, but never a mule (half of one and half of the other).....

This system is NOT an eCCR.

It's a mCCR......

The electronics are *only* a rough stab at trying to keep the diver *alive* (not on setpoint) if he gets task-overloaded. Nothing more. Anywhere between 0.15 and 2.0 is good enough for that. The system can be pretty simple and meet that criteria. That's all it is designed to do. Number of cells? Calibration point? Etc? All irrelevent. It's *good enough to keep you alive*. Your brain/thumb interface is what will keep it on setpoint.

Matthias enjoyed good setpoint control because he has the correct mCCCR flow set on the orifice.....

Dave

**Freef** · 19th August 2007, 15:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

...That's all it is designed to do. Number of cells? Calibration point? Etc? All irrelevent...

On a unit that can be dived to 100m+ as mentioned in the original post?

A friend of mine dives with an mCCR version with two cells, one of which started to appear to 'lag' mid dive...or was the other one reading high?

Although a cell going down is an abort anyway, the chances of two cells failing in the same way, at the same time, and giving the same readings is so remote as to be almost impossible, so you can rely on the two cells that read the same to get you back.

I don't know how many would be sold in the UK at the moment with the current 'interesting' attitude of the distributor though.

**Dave Sutton** · 19th August 2007, 15:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef)

On a unit that can be dived to 100m+ as mentioned in the original post?.

Yes, it's a mCCR.... 2 cells and a diluent flush are all the human brain needs to sort cells out.

With that said, my bet is that a VR-3 with a sensor in the bag will be a common upgrade path.... there's your third cell.

Dave

**Dave Sutton** · 19th August 2007, 15:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef)

A friend of mine dives with an mCCR version with two cells, one of which started to appear to 'lag' mid dive...or was the other one reading high?.

If he does not know how to do a diluent flush to figure it out.... he ought to pick a different sport.

Dave

**Freef** · 19th August 2007, 18:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

If he does not know how to do a diluent flush to figure it out.... he ought to pick a different sport.

Dave

That was the fun part, the sensors started reading 'out' above a pO2 of 0.8.

We were at 22m, on air dil.

Well, I was on 40% in the Dolph.

jaap · 21st August 2007, 18:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by MatV)

That should read 2,8 l/min, because there is the CMF Flow.
Well in that case you use the booster to add up.

Greets,
Matthias

OK, sorry may bad (If the tunable needlevalve is set at 0.8lpm).

But how about that solenoid control? Given only two cells are used fro control?

Say cells are not agreeing. What does the solenoid do? Like pO2m 0.99 and 1.21, would it trigger injection or not?

divetheworld · 21st August 2007, 18:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

This system is NOT an eCCR.

It's a mCCR......

The electronics are *only* a rough stab at trying to keep the diver *alive* (not on setpoint) if he gets task-overloaded. Nothing more. Anywhere between 0.15 and 2.0 is good enough for that. The system can be pretty simple and meet that criteria. That's all it is designed to do. Number of cells? Calibration point? Etc? All irrelevent. It's *good enough to keep you alive*. Your brain/thumb interface is what will keep it on setpoint.

Matthias enjoyed good setpoint control because he has the correct mCCCR flow set on the orifice.....

Dave

The thread title has caused confusion then. It states ECCR.

The question was, does the electronics maintain setpoint or are they just a parachute?

If it is a parachute, it might be your last line of defence, I would expect it to be more failure tolerant. Not less so. If the diver is task overloaded and this takes over and the system fails then he is permanently screwed.
Im sure its about as irrelevant as checking a bang seat still works correctly. Coz if your brain and thumb are working correctly, you wouldnt need the parachute.

19th August 2007, 13:06	#11 (permalink)
MatV New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other SCR Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Germayn Posts: 15	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by brinoz) The solenoid is in paralel of a KISS orifice, so total flowrate is about 2.8 ltr/min I guess. Your body cannot metabolized such a oxygène quantity. No idea if it is sufficient in case of really fast ascent. Do the math. If you ascend from 40 to 10 in 3 minutes, the ppO2 will drop from 1 bar to 0.5. In case you do not add manually. Now wasn't there something mentioned somewhere about manual addition? BTW, when you look at the sensor display, you automatically have your thumb on the add switch. Matthias Last edited by Decodiver : 19th August 2007 at 15:40.
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19th August 2007, 13:50	#12 (permalink)
MatV New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other SCR Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Germayn Posts: 15	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) thats not how i read it with the statement "Setpoint stability was excellent." If it is an MCCR with a parachute then i do agree with you, a good way to look at it. But i dont think it is. Perhaps that can be clarified. Setpoint stability is influenced by the degree of accuracy in the setting of the subphysiological flow. I set mine with a flowmeter to 0.75, and this was an excellent match. Matthias
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19th August 2007, 13:56	#13 (permalink)
MatV New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other SCR Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Germayn Posts: 15	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) An eCCR with only two cells... No logic... Cal in air... Fixed setpoint anywhere between 1-1.2... Hope the solenoid can keep up with a fairly fast ascent or you will find yourself the subject of a much more somber thread. Which logic prevents from 2 cells wrong voting as a majority? IMHO, due to the placement the cells are legions more immune than in another europeen rebreather Could you be more specific about your concern regarding the setpoint hysteresis? Any special concerns, from a physiological point of view? Decompressionwise? Matthias
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19th August 2007, 15:18	#14 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Living on Animal Farm Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,637	Re: New Submatix ECCR Matthias is an old friend (How long now, Matthias? 10 years?), experienced homebuilder, and a good smart guy with a good head on his shoulders, so what he says has some merit. The "confusion" exhibited here is, however, my primary objection to "parachute" systems: There is an ambiguity between if it's a "eCCR" or a "mCCR". In truth, the fact that ambiguity can exist at all is why I either dive a horse or a donkey, but never a mule (half of one and half of the other)..... This system is NOT an eCCR. It's a mCCR...... The electronics are only a rough stab at trying to keep the diver alive (not on setpoint) if he gets task-overloaded. Nothing more. Anywhere between 0.15 and 2.0 is good enough for that. The system can be pretty simple and meet that criteria. That's all it is designed to do. Number of cells? Calibration point? Etc? All irrelevent. It's good enough to keep you alive. Your brain/thumb interface is what will keep it on setpoint. Matthias enjoyed good setpoint control because he has the correct mCCCR flow set on the orifice..... Dave __________________ On a diving safari for a few months... will likely not read PM's... so email me at RedStarAviation at GMail dot Com to find me...... Last edited by Dave Sutton : 19th August 2007 at 15:24.
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19th August 2007, 15:36	#15 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,356	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) ...That's all it is designed to do. Number of cells? Calibration point? Etc? All irrelevent... On a unit that can be dived to 100m+ as mentioned in the original post? A friend of mine dives with an mCCR version with two cells, one of which started to appear to 'lag' mid dive...or was the other one reading high? Although a cell going down is an abort anyway, the chances of two cells failing in the same way, at the same time, and giving the same readings is so remote as to be almost impossible, so you can rely on the two cells that read the same to get you back. I don't know how many would be sold in the UK at the moment with the current 'interesting' attitude of the distributor though. __________________ David. Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.
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19th August 2007, 15:44	#16 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Living on Animal Farm Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,637	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef) On a unit that can be dived to 100m+ as mentioned in the original post?. Yes, it's a mCCR.... 2 cells and a diluent flush are all the human brain needs to sort cells out. With that said, my bet is that a VR-3 with a sensor in the bag will be a common upgrade path.... there's your third cell. Dave __________________ On a diving safari for a few months... will likely not read PM's... so email me at RedStarAviation at GMail dot Com to find me......
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19th August 2007, 15:46	#17 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Living on Animal Farm Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,637	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Freef) A friend of mine dives with an mCCR version with two cells, one of which started to appear to 'lag' mid dive...or was the other one reading high?. If he does not know how to do a diluent flush to figure it out.... he ought to pick a different sport. Dave __________________ On a diving safari for a few months... will likely not read PM's... so email me at RedStarAviation at GMail dot Com to find me......
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19th August 2007, 18:52	#18 (permalink)
Freef Custom Title Disallowed! Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Land of the Freef, UK. Posts: 1,356	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) If he does not know how to do a diluent flush to figure it out.... he ought to pick a different sport. Dave That was the fun part, the sensors started reading 'out' above a pO2 of 0.8. We were at 22m, on air dil. Well, I was on 40% in the Dolph. __________________ David. Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.
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21st August 2007, 18:10	#19 (permalink)
jaap Normal people worry me Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 445	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by MatV) That should read 2,8 l/min, because there is the CMF Flow. Well in that case you use the booster to add up. Greets, Matthias OK, sorry may bad (If the tunable needlevalve is set at 0.8lpm). But how about that solenoid control? Given only two cells are used fro control? Say cells are not agreeing. What does the solenoid do? Like pO2m 0.99 and 1.21, would it trigger injection or not? __________________ My initials: JAAP
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21st August 2007, 18:44	#20 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,551	Re: New Submatix ECCR Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) This system is NOT an eCCR. It's a mCCR...... The electronics are only a rough stab at trying to keep the diver alive (not on setpoint) if he gets task-overloaded. Nothing more. Anywhere between 0.15 and 2.0 is good enough for that. The system can be pretty simple and meet that criteria. That's all it is designed to do. Number of cells? Calibration point? Etc? All irrelevent. It's good enough to keep you alive. Your brain/thumb interface is what will keep it on setpoint. Matthias enjoyed good setpoint control because he has the correct mCCCR flow set on the orifice..... Dave The thread title has caused confusion then. It states ECCR. The question was, does the electronics maintain setpoint or are they just a parachute? If it is a parachute, it might be your last line of defence, I would expect it to be more failure tolerant. Not less so. If the diver is task overloaded and this takes over and the system fails then he is permanently screwed. Im sure its about as irrelevant as checking a bang seat still works correctly. Coz if your brain and thumb are working correctly, you wouldnt need the parachute. __________________ Self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe Last edited by divetheworld : 21st August 2007 at 18:46.
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