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  1. #21
    RBW Member Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike's Avatar
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    Re: shadow divers

    I read the book, it was entertaining enough but I think things shouldnt get taken too far out of perspective.

    They found a sub did some research and ID'd it - ok thats cool but its not really such a big deal

    and the sub wasnt where it was supposed to be - again big deal they never are!

    Lots of people have done much-much more (as regards wreck hunting ID solving mysterys etc) Now if V.S for example was to write a book about his discoveries/research/diving....jeez now that would really put things into perspective :D Although I guess the fact hes discovered and ID'd lets say conservitavely 20+ historical WW2 wrecks including many subs, distroyers, cruisers ect without a single loss of life on any of them makes it less um interesting?

    Yeh and the Doria is the everest of wreck diving too how many died to get it given that title

    Book was a entertaining read though and both guys seam nice the few times Ive chatted to them. I think the personal stuff in the book was not needed or necessary - but then again Im not an author/editor -guess they have their commercial reasons to make the story more interesting. I guess 'we went to a mark, found a sub did some research and ID'd it' has to be stretched out and made more interesting :D

    was that a rant? Nah not really:D I did enjoy the read - theres so little books like this around. Im just pissy cos I spent the weekend diving OC sidemount (thanks Jakub) and I burnt my shiny head :D - hey guess how bad my RMV is :D
    Last edited by Drmike; 15th July 2007 at 10:58.

  2. #22
    Banned MB is an unknown quantity at this point MB's Avatar
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    Re: shadow divers

    Quote Originally Posted by Drmike  View Original Post
    I read the book, it was entertaining enough but I think things shouldnt get taken too far out of perspective.
    And that's the point: It's *entertainment* for the *non-diver*. Anyone who misses that, misses the point.

    And many miss this too: It was done early, long before "tech diving" or rebreathers were the norm. Not for nothing, George Hoffman's old wreck chart had a circle at that spot with the word "submarine" pencilled in. How did he know it was there? Far too deep for us to have dived when he got the location... we think a scallop boat had a sonar image of it and shared the "snag spot" with George. The chart was from the mid 70's. The location had been known to commercial fishermen for years, it's just that nobody chartered a boat to go dive it. George used to host Nagle for drinks at his house, and gave Nagle the LORAN numbers. That's not in the books either.... as I said before, for the locals here the story is far more detailed (and interesting) than the "entertainment" versions which are selling books.


    But: The "We went to a mark, there was a sub there, and we finally figured out what it is" is just about the bottom line. Add a lot of details, sell books, get a movie made, retire from the residual income: What's not to like? :D I'd be the first to sign up for that job...



    Segue: The Andrea Doria was considered the "Everest of Diving" simply because it was regularly dived with air by divers who were just beginning to develop deep water diving techniques. Dive it with twin 72's and a pony bottle, all with air, and tell me about how it felt. Just as in early days of aviation, lessons were learned the hard way. And just like aviation: Just because it *appears* to be routine these days, that's only because pioneers went before and learned lessons the hard way and with any luck the next generation pays attention to these lessons.

    And trust this: There's *nothing* routine about taking a boat out there and diving her. It's not the dive, it's the trip and the unpredictable ocean in that spot that's the issue. We're leaving Friday on EXPLORER for her... and it's not routine in any way. The dive is the easy part.


    Dave (mixing 'Doria gas for all today....)
    Last edited by MB; 15th July 2007 at 12:19.

  3. #23
    RBW Member Chris Gregory is an unknown quantity at this point Chris Gregory's Avatar
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    Re: shadow divers

    I couldn't agree more well said Dave! Next time I see you maybe we could trade pizza stained T shirts :)

  4. #24
    RBW Member Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike's Avatar
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    Re: shadow divers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave ******  View Original Post
    And that's the point: It's *entertainment* for the *non-diver*. Anyone who misses that, misses the point.
    yup thats exactly my point but clearly there are many who do.
    But: The "We went to a mark, there was a sub there, and we finally figured out what it is" is just about the bottom line. Add a lot of details, sell books, get a movie made, retire from the residual income: What's not to like? :D I'd be the first to sign up for that job...
    yeh sounds like a plan :D

    Segue: The Andrea Doria was considered the "Everest of Diving" simply because it was regularly dived with air by divers who were just beginning to develop deep water diving techniques. Dive it with twin 72's and a pony bottle, all with air, and tell me about how it felt. Just as in early days of aviation, lessons were learned the hard way. And just like aviation: Just because it *appears* to be routine these days, that's only because pioneers went before and learned lessons the hard way and with any luck the next generation pays attention to these lessons.

    And trust this: There's *nothing* routine about taking a boat out there and diving her. It's not the dive, it's the trip and the unpredictable ocean in that spot that's the issue. We're leaving Friday on EXPLORER for her... and it's not routine in any way. The dive is the easy part.
    I dont think theres any doubt that part of the mystique of the Doria is the fact so many have died there. Thats my only point. I know due to the sea conditions she can be a hard dive - maybe thats where the comparison to everest comes from - the fact that good weather can make a sumit a heck of a lot easier, same mountain bad weather and people are dying

  5. #25
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    Re: shadow divers

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave ******  View Original Post
    Hmmm..............

    Hard to articulate what I want to say:


    Dave
    Dave,

    That was a beautiful post I would also like to add there were no Internet
    so when you did research it was extremely painful. Imagine having to travel all over to local libraries and then start reading microfiche files, How many RBW members even know or remember a microfiche

  6. #26
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    Re: shadow divers

    There is an old political saying that goes,” A lie left unchallenged eventually becomes the truth”.

    Dave ******,

    Normally I just ignore your exaggerations and unsubstantiated claims of fame. It’s not my job to be the “Truth Detector” on all your “I was there and did this first stories”. But when you tell bare faced lies about a good friend of mine, I feel the need to respond.

    You have made the mistake of telling lies about my good friend Gary Gentile which have been copied below. I have known Gary for 16+ years and am a close friend of his……..something you are clearly not. As a good friend of his I feel obligated to set the record straight and point you out for the common liar that you can be.


    You Claim:
    ”Gary came back from Viet Nam *screwed up*, and has lived like a monk in his Philadelphia row house,”

    “The issue is that Gary's personality is what it is: He's not a social guy. He's a misfit "of sorts"

    “He probably ought to have a LOT more fame as a pioneering wreck diver, but his personality disorder (and there is no doubt that he has some sort of clinical disorder) interferes with his legen
    d.”

    For the record:

    Gary is a very honest caring person who subscribes to a extremely high set of moral values …….something you wouldn't be familiar with and neither was George Hoffman.

    Gary does not suffer fools. He is not one to sit around drinking beer and tell half truth stories about his "friends" to bolster his own reputation (a common disease within the New Jersey diving community). Gary has a great many friends in and out of diving, although he is not a self promoter. He is well like most places he goes whether it is diving related or not. He and the lady he has been with for the last 20+ years are good friends of mine. The 3 of us and occasionally my wife have done a number of trips together, almost all not diving related. He chooses not to waste his non diving time with the social misfits that you refer to as "*our* family of NJ wreck divers".



    Gary is an exceptionally frugal person. Many people see him as being cheap because he chooses not to spend the sums of money for food, lodging, and other items that others would consider normal. Instead he saves his money, choosing to spend it on the things that are important to him and his lady. While others sit at home in the off season bemoaning the fact that they lack the funds to take a trip, Gary and his lady travel. Gary is an accomplished mountain climber, having climbed a great many of the peaks of North America. He has also done numerous wilderness canoeing trips both in the USA and Canada. Dave, while it is probably an exaggeration, Gary has experienced more of North America on foot and in a canoe than you will likely ever see out of your airplane window. Two years ago he invited me along with them on a trip in the Spring which included camping and snow shoeing in Yellow Stone National Park. I declined as I don’t do snow. This is the kind of trips that they do which most of us lack the motivation and fitness to consider doing. Dave truth be told, I think people like you lie about Gary simply because you are jealous of the things he has accomplished and the notoriety he enjoys from having been the one to do them.

    Dave I submit that no single person has done more for wreck diving than Gary. As an example I offer his court battles with NOAA to gain access for the wreck diving community to the Monitor. In case you weren’t aware, that cost him a substantial amount of money. None of us would have dove the Monitor if it hadn’t been for his courage and money to take on the federal government! Dave, I challenge you to name anyone who has spent more of their own money funding wreck search trips or fighting court battles in the USA and Canada for access to existing wrecks than Gary!

    Well now I have said my peace. It’s time for Silver Tongue Dave to explain how I am wrong or misunderstood what he wrote. Why don't you start by explaining your medical credentials that qualify you to claim that Gary has a "personality disorder (and there is no doubt that he has some sort of clinical disorder)".

    Ted

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave ******  View Original Post
    Hmmm..............

    Hard to articulate what I want to say:

    All of these guys ae locals here. I've known John for 20 years or so. Have had both he and Ritchie aboard EXPLORER (there will be a TV special this fall on the U-Boats, a portion of which was filmed aboard EXPLORER). I've also known Gary for years, albeit as one who had been thrown off of the dive boat that I cut my teeth on as a mate in 1974 thru more-or-less today (Sea Lion, first under Capt. George Hoffman, who literally invented the sport of NJ Wreck Diving starting in the early 1960's, now under Capt. Al Pyatak, who is likely my closest friend), so have heard it all or seen it all. Nagle's old 35 foot SEEKER used to be docked right next to us. Nagles "Large SEEKER", later Dan Crowell's SEEKER was docked right upstream of us. We all know each other and all of the personalities are well known. Like any family, we harass each other but don't want outsiders harassing any of our members. Nagle was a drunken scumbag, but he was *our family drunken scumbag* and outsiders ought to just leave it at that. He had lots of good traits as well. You had to know him to have a full opinion. Gentile was persona-non-grata aboard the SEA LION for reasons that are well known (and on this one, George Hoffman was right and Gary was wrong, and I know because I was there). With that said, Gary, having been thrown off the Sea Lion by Hoffman came to Hoffman's funeral and stood like a man. It's all in the family, *our* family of NJ wreck divers.


    Here's my read:

    All of these guys are long-lived experts in our NE wreck diving community. No shit, they all are the best of the best. All have made VERY important contributions. Gary was "the end of the first generation", IE the EDA (Eastern Dive Association), the old hard-core wreck divers led by Tommy Roach. Trust this: They invented the sport, and they invented it aboad the Sea Lion. The year that EDA ended was 1974, when Little John died on the Pinta (and which was my first year as a Jersey Wreck Diver). Many of the EDA members continued diving and I am honored to have been able to have learned from them. These traditions were carved in stone, and no joke: EDA V/S Post-EDA diving seperated two generations of divers here. I was there, just beginning as a diver at the transition, and appreciate both sides. John and Ritchie are "the beginning of the second generation". They were not around during the EDA and immediate post-EDA days. This may explain some of Gary's views. To him, post-EDA divers are "newcomers" of sorts. There's a third generation now too, the post "technical diving industry" divers who have no clue how their sport was built and developed, but that's another story. Just keep in mind that the very few remaining guys from Gen-1 have long memories. Gary is the only guy to have written down any of the early history. While seen thru his own (sometimes odd) prism, I cannot disagree with all that much that he writes. I do disagree with some.


    In any case, to understand what he writes, you need to understand the man. :

    Gary came back from Viet Nam *screwed up*, and has lived like a monk in his Philadelphia row house, working thru some really painful personal issues (as well as physical ones.... he came back from the 'Nam hurt badly), while at the same time performing some of the most detailed and excellent wreck research ever done. His contributions are *immense*, and should not be overlooked. He has done *the real deal* as a diver, no more and no less than either John or Ritchie. And this takes nothing away from either of them.

    The issue is that Gary's personality is what it is: He's not a social guy. He's a misfit "of sorts". He is HIGHLY intelligent and well read. He's sometime scary to be around he's so friggin' smart. His expertise is detailed research and in-the-water diving. He's like Captain Ahab, only he hunts wrecks. He ought to be a world famous guy. He's *not* a rock-star personality, and would never come off as "fun loving" on TV. He probably ought to have a LOT more fame as a pioneering wreck diver, but his personality disorder (and there is no doubt that he has some sort of clinical disorder) interferes with his legend. He's probably sensitive to that. He's a *good guy* though, heart of gold, one who I would trust my life with, and a VERY capable diver.

    Shadow Divers is a good book, good entertainment, and good insight.

    Gary's books are also *very* good, generally are pretty accurate, and if you can filter out some of the "jousting at windmills" rambles, deserve a read too. The Lusitania Controversies is excellent, as are his books on the Doria. I know personally most of the people in these stories and can concur with much of what he writes, while disagreeing with many of his conclusions.

    My advice? Read it all, and then you'll have 2/3 of the story. The last third can only be obtained by either having been a part of that generation, or by sitting on the deck and listening to the stories of the guys who were part of it. And, with all due respect, unless you were here, you'll never get the full flavor of the rich tapestry of personalities that paved the way for our community, so don't judge the folks you don't know.


    Dave

  7. #27
    CK #146 and Shearwater prharris is on a distinguished road prharris is on a distinguished road prharris's Avatar
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    Re: Shadow Divers - The Movie

    Quote Originally Posted by PacketSniffer  View Original Post
    When I was at DEMA, John and Richie said that they were leaving DEMA to head to Chicago to speak with the writers/director/or whoever (can't remember exactly who) about the movie they have been working on. In addition, they were hopeful that it would be done and showing around Thanksgiving '07.

    I enjoyed the book no matter what the real circumstances were. I'm eagerly looking forward to watching the movie.
    This one? If so we're looking at 2009 now :)

    Shadow Divers (2009)

    r
    P
    Last edited by prharris; 16th July 2007 at 10:02.

  8. #28
    Banned MB is an unknown quantity at this point MB's Avatar
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    Re: shadow divers

    Quote Originally Posted by O.C.Diver  View Original Post
    There is an old political saying that goes,” A lie left unchallenged eventually becomes the truth”.


    Hey Ted,

    I have the *utmost* repect for Gary, which is what I intended to be taken as the point. he's a GOOD GUY. He's also "different", as we all are. Great people are are rarely "regular". As a crewmember aboard Sea Lion, I missed having him around after George tossed him off. We all did. I don't know him well enough to be a friend... in fact he routinely ignored all of us. That's cool.... he's a special person and we all know it. I wish I knew him well enough to be "other than ignored"... ;)

    No disrespect intended at all. In fact, I was trying to add to his legend. He deserves one. I keep all of his books aboard EXPLORER and encourage people to read them. They are the best writing done on NE diving. No need to go thru the Monitor stuff: Everyone know's he opened that door.

    I think we're both saying the same thing, myself from the view of someone at the periphery, and you from your closer relationship. I'm glad you stick up for a friend, no better measure of a man is possible. Don't get your hackles up: I stand Gary up in the top 1 percent of achievement, and that's in human achievement, not diving achievement. I think the term is "rennisance man".

    I'll let the balance of your statements go for now, as I am sure that they were written in anger. I don't appreciate being called a liar, but I'm also the sort of person who would fight for a friend, no matter right or wrong, so I appreciate the sentiment. Reminds me of this:



    ONE man in a thousand, Solomon says,
    Will stick more close than a brother.
    And it’s worth while seeking him half your days
    If you find him before the other.
    Nine hundred and ninety-nine depend
    On what the world sees in you,
    But the Thousandth Man will stand your friend
    With the whole round world agin you.

    ’Tis neither promise nor prayer nor show
    Will settle the finding for ’ee.
    Nine hundred and ninety-nine of ’em go
    By your looks, or your acts, or your glory.
    But if he finds you and you find him,
    The rest of the world don’t matter;
    For the Thousandth Man will sink or swim
    With you in any water.

    You can use his purse with no more talk
    Than he uses yours for his spendings,
    And laugh and meet in your daily walk
    As though there had been no lendings.
    Nine hundred and ninety-nine of ’em call
    For silver and gold in their dealings;
    But the Thousandth Man he’s worth ’em all;
    Because you can show him your feelings.

    His wrong’s your wrong, and his right’s your right,
    In season or out of season.
    Stand up and back it in all men’s sight—
    With that for your only reason!
    Nine hundred and ninety-nine can’t bide
    The shame or mocking or laughter,
    But the Thousandth Man will stand by your side
    To the gallows-foot—and after!



    I'll close with this:

    (1): Agreed 100% that Gary has done more for wreck diving than just anyone around. Not in the advance of technology, but in research, litigation, and "being out there diving".

    (2): I found that "Shadow Divers Exposed" had more ireal nformation in it than did "Shadow Divers"... with that said, what Gary might have missed is that Shadow Divers was written for entertainment, not for the historical record.

    (3): He's got a good friend in you, and ought to be proud to have someone like come out and defend him, even though there's nothing to defend from me. Don't take a couple of things that I wrote out of context, or look for insult where none was intended: We're both on the same side here. I think you're sensitive to what *others* might have written/said and only read a few of my words before "flipping the switch". Go back and re-read. I'm not jealous at all.... I'm a supporter. And I swear I'm done with this.... no matter who you defend someone is gonna take it the wrong way.



    Now, if you'll excuse me, I have gas to mix and groceries to buy and 600 gallons of Diesel to buy: Three day countdown for the Doria. Wish you and Gary were aboard.


    Best,

    Dave
    Last edited by MB; 16th July 2007 at 11:33.

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