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Thread: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

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    RBW Member bobbob23 is an unknown quantity at this point bobbob23's Avatar
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    Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    A few days ago I posted a thread in the General rebreather diving section. The questions were in depth and it involved a fictional hypothetical dive. Rather than answer most respondents decided it was the proper fora to question why I had asked the question. This was odd as I had been incredibly clear in the very first line that

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbob23  View Original Post
    First things first: I am not a rebreather diver nor am I looking for instruction I am only asking this out of curiosity, nothing more.
    This wasn't enough it seems and users came out of the woodwork to imply it couldn't be what I said it was, that I was heading to an early grave, that I was a potential lawyer looking for expert opinion and that no mere open circuit diver could possibly know about any of these things that I had the gall to ask about.

    These defenders of the sacred teachings of the ways of the rebreather did nothing more than to derail the thread with their less than useless contributions.

    Is this the type of community that RBW is?

    Where are the rules of what information is allowed to be shared and who deems whom qualified to share it?

    Given the fact that I don't have nor have access to a rebreather nor have training in the use of a rebreather, what is the possible risk in having access to information? What's the worst outcome?

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    RBW Member graham_hk is a jewel in the rough graham_hk is a jewel in the rough graham_hk is a jewel in the rough graham_hk is a jewel in the rough graham_hk is a jewel in the rough graham_hk is a jewel in the rough graham_hk is a jewel in the rough graham_hk is a jewel in the rough graham_hk's Avatar
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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbob23  View Original Post
    Given the fact that I don't have nor have access to a rebreather nor have training in the use of a rebreather, what is the possible risk in having access to information? What's the worst outcome?
    One has to question why you would want the information in that case

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    RBW Member chef_au is an unknown quantity at this point chef_au's Avatar
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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk  View Original Post
    One has to question why you would want the information in that case
    I know when I looked at crossing from OC to CCR I asked a tonne of questions. It helped me know what has costs I'd be up for, see if dive planning was something that was beyond my non mathematically inclined grey matter, how long I'd be away each day and beg for permission from the Mrs.

    We should be encouraging people to ask questions. There is no sacred order of CCR, and the dive community is littered with people shaking a bone who people for lack of training or going a bit rogue, but the slightest hint of someone trying to research gets flamed.

    Anyways, I digress....

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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    RBW Member bobbob23 is an unknown quantity at this point bobbob23's Avatar
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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    Quote Originally Posted by graham_hk  View Original Post
    One has to question why you would want the information in that case
    Why?
    And who is qualified to ask why?
    Especially given that I explained why I was asking, why was it ignored?
    Last edited by bobbob23; 10th July 2018 at 09:16.

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    RBW Member Dive Africa is an unknown quantity at this point Dive Africa's Avatar
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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    It's because your tone and attitude stinks - you sound like a self entitled millennial.

    Nobody on here is obliged to give you answer - its there time after all - and if they want to establish why they are going to give up there time to answer you relevant or irrelevant questions - maybe deal with them with a bit more respect and not by getting your back up.

    I for one might have answered your questions but have changed my mind

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    RBW Member jvos is on a distinguished road jvos is on a distinguished road jvos's Avatar
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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    One, you say you don't have a rebreather, but you might have just bought one off e-bay.
    two, you take it out without proper training and die. I don't want to be responsible in any way.

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    RBW Member bobbob23 is an unknown quantity at this point bobbob23's Avatar
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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    Quote Originally Posted by Dive Africa  View Original Post
    It's because your tone and attitude stinks - you sound like a self entitled millennial.

    Nobody on here is obliged to give you answer - its there time after all - and if they want to establish why they are going to give up there time to answer you relevant or irrelevant questions - maybe deal with them with a bit more respect and not by getting your back up.

    I for one might have answered your questions but have changed my mind
    That's fine if someone doesn't answer but taking the time and effort to say that I couldn't possibly be asking this without so ulterior motive, is a waste of their energy and mine.

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    RBW Member bobbob23 is an unknown quantity at this point bobbob23's Avatar
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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    Quote Originally Posted by jvos  View Original Post
    One, you say you don't have a rebreather, but you might have just bought one off e-bay.
    two, you take it out without proper training and die. I don't want to be responsible in any way.
    Do you treat every post as if the OP was lying or hiding something?

    How could you be held responsible?

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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    Bob,

    Your questions were quite specific - as someone who has had a Lawyer read back his ancient posts to a diving forum back to him in Court - twice - I can tell you they sure do look like a troll for info.

    That said - and taking you on your word that you're asking legitimate questions, you seemed to have got one or two that fit the bill. I will add my own below just for giggles:
    First things first: I am not a rebreather diver nor am I looking for instruction I am only asking this out of curiosity, nothing more.

    You know what they say about "curiosity" - the dive you're describing is a mongo dive that I would only do with someone who I felt had a lot of experience. 100m dives are not for the faint of heart. They sound cool and all, but to do them well, you have to do a lot of them - and doing a lot of them and surviving is not easy.

    So Iím trying to get my head around what a deep (80-100m) dive would go down like and have a few questions about what would happen and when. So the best way I think of going about this is to write down what I think happens and when so hopefully can let me know if I get something mixed up or wrong. Iíll be using multideco for calcs and deco but Iíve never used it in CCR mode so donít know what Iím doing. I will be using the first person but donít take this to mean anything. Iíll ask a few questions to clear up some things before going through the whole planning or bail out calcs which I will leave until later.

    So letís say a 100m dive with 20min bottom time and we can assume nothing goes awry.

    First off - a 20 minute bottom time is too long, unless there is something down there you really need to get to, or you're digging for buried treasure. All the 100m + dives I've done we tried to limit our bottom time to 10-15 minutes at most which would keep us in the 110-140 minute TRT zone. Again, sounds cool to do a 3 hour dive, but a 3 hour dive kicks your ass in ways that you don't comprehend until you're done with one and sitting on the boat going "why the f** did I do that??".

    Letís assume I have a reasonably stock CCR equipped with a BOV. What dil would one use (10/70)? Whatís my bailout look like three cylinders: Ali 80 with 10/70 another with Nx50 and one more with 80-100%

    I converted to straight Heliox in 1996 and never looked back. Some guys, like Rich Pyle tell me they get the "heebie-jeebies" past 300 ft on Helox, so he uses mix, but in the scenario you list, I would run 15/85 - I was never a fan of having hypoxic mixes, because when the s**t hits the fan, you're likely to breathe whatever you have all the way to the surface, and it would be dumb to die on the surface because you were breathing a hypoxic gas mix. Just my opinion - I know others who do differently, and they ain't died yet.
    Predive checks carried out and all is good, setpoint would be set at the surface to 0.7?

    I always used .4 for a reason. One, I could let my rig run all day long and it'll keep .4 without blowing through my O2, and secondly, I found that if I jump in with the loop at .4 and my Diluent is mixed for my MOD, I will be spot-on on my Set Point when I hit bottom without having to add gas or anything. That is why I designed the Hammerhead to maintain .4 on the surface, then switch to 1.0 at 3m and then Set-Point at >10m.
    Begin the descent, the BOV will be connected to my highest O2 bailout stage?

    No. It should be connected to your Onboard Diluent. Your Diluent is your first line of defense in a problem (this goes back to the "Alpinist" philosophy of sticking to the rig to save you).
    During the descent, I would increase my setpoint to 1.0 - 1.3, what depth would this change happen, what setpoint for this dive?

    I know this is taught by all the agencies, but I have never understood it, since we HAVE that feature automatically in the Hammerhead since 2004. Why all the task-loading when you got a machine that'll do it for you? Hmmm...
    I would need to switch my BOV to a safe working gas would I go onto my deepest bailout as soon as itís breathable?

    Again, more task-loading. If your Diluent is breathable at depth to the surface, then why monkey around with switching connectors, hoses, etc. This seems to me to be a very klugy way of diving. Ostensibly, you're diving to do or see other things than just to dork around with your gear, so minimize the work load, and just leave your BOV connected to the internal Diluent tank. I'm assuming you got 2nd stages on your bailouts, so you're going to go OC no matter what in an emergency - so it makes no sense to be switching bailout/diluent gasses on the descent.

    ----> All that said, we DID use a Whitey Valve to do Diluent Switches back in the day when we thought that Helium was the "bad gas". Having a Whitey Valve on your Mark 15 allowed you to butt-mount a bottle, and then use that as a secondary supply of gas in the event you had to go semi-closed. But we always ran that with AIR since anytime you'd be going on that, you're not going to be below 100m anyway.
    All the bailout bottles have a quick disconnect how is hose routing to the BOV done? Especially given that some people have stages on both sides?

    We did this - but mostly so that if necessary, we could hand our bailout bottle to a diver in distress, or who needed extra Semi-Closed or OC gas. By standardizing the quick connectors on all of our bottles, any one of us could help any other in our crew (we used to dive as a film crew with everyone using the same kit more or less).
    Many of the plans give me back CNS errors (set at 80%) what should be entered into multdeco?

    Beats the s**t outta me. We never even thought about CNS. It only became a factor after a week or so of 3 dives a day where we'd start having vision problems. Take a day off to go swimming or fishing or buying trinkets from the locals, and our eyesight was as right as rain the next day.
    Quite a few of the plans go well beyond three hours scrubber time as far as I can see are often rated for three hours with how is this dealt?

    Scrubbers are designed for "worst case" and multiple long duration dives. Most dives are less than 3 hours, just because it's a lot of work to be diving for more than that. Getting 2 dives a day out of a scrubber is just fine.
    Some people dive with a bail out breather
    how is the setpoint managed on a device that isnít being used actively during the dive?

    The only people who would use a bail-out rebreather are the truly paranoid, and guys like Krzystof who do 900 foot dives where he'll be in the water for 12 hours. You won't need one, so I wouldn't worry about it much.
    Given the BOB will have counterlungs full of gas how is buoyancy is managed?
    Again, only a couple divers on earth do this, and I'd imagine they weigh the units down, but the depths they're going to would crush the lungs flat in any event.


    I hope this helps answer some of your questions. These are my own unique answers containing my own unique opinions which happen to be better than anyone elses but that doesn't mean that some may disagree.

    All the best,

    Kevin Juergensen
    Juergensen Marine, Inc.

  10. #10
    RBW Member bobbob23 is an unknown quantity at this point bobbob23's Avatar
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    Re: Getting relevant responses to inquiries

    Quote Originally Posted by heyydude  View Original Post
    Bob,

    Your questions were quite specific - as someone who has had a Lawyer read back his ancient posts to a diving forum back to him in Court - twice - I can tell you they sure do look like a troll for info......
    Thank you so much for taking the time to contribute was not expecting someone as prominent in the industry as you to help out. You'd have to admit that the average user here is not ever going to be in the same position as you in terms of legalities. My feeling is that would someone be wary of my op why wouldn't they simply ignore it rather than make accusations. Again I couldn't even imagine doing any dive like this. This was the kind of feedback I was hoping to get and it if anything makes me want to learn even more. Again thank you. If you have any recommended reading please let me know.

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