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Thread: All about the compromises

  1. #11
    RBW Member Hk101gr is on a distinguished road Hk101gr is on a distinguished road Hk101gr's Avatar
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    Re: All about the compromises

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsix36  View Original Post
    Try buying a counter lung and see how easy that is since they will not sell to the end user

    Sent from my E500A using Tapatalk
    Same as trying to buy a board or something like that with most others? Not everything is user serviceable i guess, thats ok with me.

    Another question stemming from this:
    Is it field serviceable? If so to what extend? Will you get locked out by an internal predive check in the middle of nowhere with no hope but a trip to the nearest tech or is there a way to dive in degraded-lets say- mode?
    Do you plan on using it in the middle of nowhere?
    Can you perform repairs if the need arises and to what extend?

  2. #12
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    Re: All about the compromises

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsix36  View Original Post
    Try buying a counter lung and see how easy that is since they will not sell to the end user

    Sent from my E500A using Tapatalk
    If I need a counter lung I stop by the factory and get a new one installed the same day :)


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  3. #13
    Supporting Member Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36's Avatar
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    Re: All about the compromises

    You are rhe lucky one then.

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    Re: All about the compromises

    It's personal preference. I went Sub-Gravity Defender. There are 4 regulars diving Defenders on the boat I go out on the most. One Sidekick, 5 rEvos. Everybody is happy with there choice. I haven't seen a single problem. Other then two guys lost bottles of O2 when they forgot to close the leaky valve! I like full electronic operation, it works for me.

    It's a big purchase so dive as many units as possible (its worth the time). When you have dove several units go back and dive the first one again, you'll feel different about it after some experience.

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    Re: All about the compromises

    I think everyone is getting a bit off the mark. If you read the original post, he is specifically NOT looking for a brand to brand recommendation or comparison. He is seeking descriptions of various features and the advantages and disadvantages of the options. Like the description Ben Field gave of BMCL vs FMCL.

    I'll chime in.

    mCCR tends to be more interactive, so the diver pays closer attention. Less fussy electronics to go bad, less draw on batteries. Disadvantages include no backup system if pO2 drops from clogged orifice or hard work and the diver is not paying attention. Leaky valve continues to bleed oxygen into the loop during temporary bailout or on surface and will affect loop content and bouyancy.

    eCCR can lead to complacency. Reliance on sometimes flaky or inconsistent electronics. Solenoid can drain battery. Solenoids can stick open or closed and rapidly affect loop pO2 since there is no leaky valve adding O2. But eCCR can maintain tight pO2 range and free diver for other tasks.

    hCCR offers advantages and disadvantages of both.
    Ken

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    Just remember that listening to an idiot such as myself may very well get your arse dead.

  6. #16
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    Re: All about the compromises

    Thanks for trying to keep it on track. I know it was a bit of a stretch to ask for info this way. Everyone wanting to go to makes and models and not the reason for the makes and models. All the "I love my (what ever they own)" doesn't explain what they love (or hate) about it.


    I had not thought about the servicability of a back mounted counterlung. As external counterlungs are just add-on equipment and not a part buried inside the machine. I can see that being something to think about if you are looking for the ability to quickly do field repairs. Or just having to deal with repairs in general.


    I'm still trying to see the benifits and downfalls of injection points and axial/radial scrubbers, among other aspects.

  7. #17
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    Re: All about the compromises

    Quote Originally Posted by broncobowsher  View Original Post
    I had not thought about the servicability of a back mounted counterlung. As external counterlungs are just add-on equipment and not a part buried inside the machine. I can see that being something to think about if you are looking for the ability to quickly do field repairs. Or just having to deal with repairs in general.
    Perhaps another point of differentiation. On many units, the lungs are external (be they front or rear mounted) in a bag similar to a BCD. Usually user serviceable / replaceable.

    On some units (notably the rEvo but there are others, eg Submatix etc) the lung lives inside the unit. Less stuff flapping around and the unit is tidier, but the lungs are more difficult to get at and by the looks of it the mfr can get a bit precious about whether to trust their victims, um, customers, with installation of what in other units would be a case of "1. Connect the hose at the t-piece".

  8. #18
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    Re: All about the compromises

    Quote Originally Posted by broncobowsher  View Original Post
    I'm still trying to see the benifits and downfalls of injection points and axial/radial scrubbers, among other aspects.
    Almost all units have axial scrubbers as stock with a few having radial as an option, unless you are specifically needing to maximise duration (deep cave exploration) axial is fine. Technically Radial offers benefits at the risk of shorter bed length (risk of breakthrough) whereas axial offers simplicity of use and design (cheaper) over performance but the performance is sufficient for all but mystical guru level divers.

    I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "injection points" as its type specific... OTSCL designs may have manual O2 and Dil on the lungs for access reasons whereas BMCL may have them remotely on hoses but injecting in technically similar places.
    ECCR's generally inject O2 into the head as it is little and often whereas MCCR and HCCR might inject O2 pre-scrubber for mixing but I am struggling to say either is better/worse a these are design constraints/philosophical differences.
    The only exception might be manual O2 inject on the inhale lung rather than exhale (as it the norm) the later is done for mixing purposes. Since I have never dived a unit with manual Dil and see no need for it I can;t expand on this topic much.

    You will find that many units have features because they are possible, nice to have or perceived as required (CO2 sensors, BOV, multiple displays etc) that in some cases are optional. I know you requested we discuss comparative configurations but its hard not to bias towards different units as not all combinations exist (many units have no radial option for example) I dive a Needle Valve driven MCCR, this is not available off the shelf for example but is IMO far superior to what is.

    Are you a current CCR diver or in the fishing/shopping stage? I would suggest that until you have dived one (doesn't matter which) its actually hard to make a judgement call as so much will be personal preference so either buying the "local favourite" peer recommendation or market leader is (while something of a cliche) a good way to get in the game and start your own journey.

  9. #19
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    Re: All about the compromises

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Starfish  View Original Post
    Perhaps another point of differentiation. On many units, the lungs are external (be they front or rear mounted) in a bag similar to a BCD. Usually user serviceable / replaceable.

    On some units (notably the rEvo but there are others, eg Submatix etc) the lung lives inside the unit. Less stuff flapping around and the unit is tidier, but the lungs are more difficult to get at and by the looks of it the mfr can get a bit precious about whether to trust their victims, um, customers, with installation of what in other units would be a case of "1. Connect the hose at the t-piece".
    the chances that ever in your life, you would have to change a counterlung on a rEvo is less than 1%... this is not an item that easily fails, as it is inside the unit, and protected extra with a liner aroung the lung..
    it's not about 'victim', it's more about protecting the customer from ruining his rebreather


    .. I know we had that discussion before, it made a big fuss on the internet, but.. well so be it, as long as everybody knows that replacing a counterlung is not something you would have to do on a regular basis, it's more 'very very rare'
    www.rEvo-rebreathers.com
    ...."Yes you have to pre-breathe to activate the scrubber sorb, anyone who says different doesn't know what they are talking about!"...
    .... to get more accurate CO2 injection in the breathing machine we put 2 mass flow controllers in series ...
    .... The noise is a few tens of nano-volts, so DL were able to reduce the output voltage ...
    .... radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
    .... the earth is flat and ...

  10. #20
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    Re: All about the compromises

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraymaekers  View Original Post
    the chances that ever in your life, you would have to change a counterlung on a rEvo is less than 1%... this is not an item that easily fails, as it is inside the unit, and protected extra with a liner aroung the lung..
    it's not about 'victim', it's more about protecting the customer from ruining his rebreather


    .. I know we had that discussion before, it made a big fuss on the internet, but.. well so be it, as long as everybody knows that replacing a counterlung is not something you would have to do on a regular basis, it's more 'very very rare'
    I am on my 5th rEvo and have 100's of dives on the unit. Never a problem with counterlung and overall no major issues! In my opinion, this is the most reliable unit of all that I dive.

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