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Thread: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

  1. #11
    Supporting Member spyder360 is an unknown quantity at this point spyder360's Avatar
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    Re: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by michael-fisch  View Original Post
    I've been diving O2 RBs for almost 25 years. Back when I started, you could only get training from the various militarys for a few units, civillian training either didn't exist or was under the table from the various manufacturers.
    Since my IDA76 was made in the Ukrane SSR (yes, back then the Ukrane was still a Soviet Socialist Republic) and my security clearance prohibited travel to any eastern block country, factory training was unavailable and civilian training didn't exist.
    Funny thing, most of the other divers in similar circumstances did what I did, asked questions and started carefully diving their units. Almost all of us survived.
    Even flying airplanes only requires a type acceptance to fly a new plane instead of a new pilots license. Why do the RB training agencys require a complete new set of courses to dive a new rb, instead of the read the manual and do a check out flight that the airplane manufacturers require?
    Very good points in there for sure - many divers have had to resort to the self-taught approach over the years, and Michael is a great example of someone who diligently went after it and made it work. I don't think that you can only learn a unit by getting c-carded, just as I don't think that having a c-card necessarily means you are exceptionally well-prepped to dive and are better than someone without - it does though mean you were checked-out on the safe operation of a unit by someone that XYZ agency has certified is a knowledgeable/capable instructor, vs yourself or some random individual professing to be an expert.

    In this day and age, getting certified on a unit by a good and skilled CCR instructor though does have meaningful merits...less trial and error learning, and imparting of knowledge and experience on the unit. This is the same idea with airplanes - in my prior career I was a flight instructor. You are correct that small planes don't require individual certifications (larger complex turbine-powered aircraft over 12,500lbs actually do have individual ratings - called type ratings), but all pilots go get "check-outs" before flying unfamiliar types. Depending upon the complexity of the aircraft, this can consist of a single flight and a few landings with an instructor, or 5-10 hours and multiple takeoffs/landings. I would guess in most cases getting your second unit CCR c-card is pretty analagous in time/training cost, but instead of getting a pilot log book sign-off, you get another c-card. My LAR VII training was pretty short/sweet, but I learned plenty on the the do's/don'ts in proper operation of the unit, and found the experience invaluable.

    Can you dive a new rebreather unit successfully and safely without training or a c-card? Absolutely. Is it safe? Depends on you and your mindset - I'd rather learn from someone with more experience than just trust myself. I personally don't think O2 rebreathers are riskier than more complex deep-diving units, and in fact are far less risky if used properly given depth constraints. But if you mis-use them, you can get hurt or die - end of the day, you can mis-use an OC spare-air and get hurt or die! You can also mis-use your car and get hurt and die...

  2. #12
    rEvoooooo JoeHuaSEALs is an unknown quantity at this point JoeHuaSEALs's Avatar
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    Re: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by spyder360  View Original Post
    Very good points in there for sure - many divers have had to resort to the self-taught approach over the years, and Michael is a great example of someone who diligently went after it and made it work. I don't think that you can only learn a unit by getting c-carded, just as I don't think that having a c-card necessarily means you are exceptionally well-prepped to dive and are better than someone without - it does though mean you were checked-out on the safe operation of a unit by someone that XYZ agency has certified is a knowledgeable/capable instructor, vs yourself or some random individual professing to be an expert.

    In this day and age, getting certified on a unit by a good and skilled CCR instructor though does have meaningful merits...less trial and error learning, and imparting of knowledge and experience on the unit. This is the same idea with airplanes - in my prior career I was a flight instructor. You are correct that small planes don't require individual certifications (larger complex turbine-powered aircraft over 12,500lbs actually do have individual ratings - called type ratings), but all pilots go get "check-outs" before flying unfamiliar types. Depending upon the complexity of the aircraft, this can consist of a single flight and a few landings with an instructor, or 5-10 hours and multiple takeoffs/landings. I would guess in most cases getting your second unit CCR c-card is pretty analagous in time/training cost, but instead of getting a pilot log book sign-off, you get another c-card. My LAR VII training was pretty short/sweet, but I learned plenty on the the do's/don'ts in proper operation of the unit, and found the experience invaluable.

    Can you dive a new rebreather unit successfully and safely without training or a c-card? Absolutely. Is it safe? Depends on you and your mindset - I'd rather learn from someone with more experience than just trust myself. I personally don't think O2 rebreathers are riskier than more complex deep-diving units, and in fact are far less risky if used properly given depth constraints. But if you mis-use them, you can get hurt or die - end of the day, you can mis-use an OC spare-air and get hurt or die! You can also mis-use your car and get hurt and die...

    I agree , diving any unit even OC can not be taken lightly, as they say in Florida every week they pull a dead body out of the water, 90 percent is human error that kills him/her.

    most the time it's just dude chasing a fish taking 1000 pictures then forgot to check the air.

    especially with rebreathers, O2 RB and tec-CCR shares a lot of similarity and I gotta say diving O2 RB are easier in some cases, It would always be great to have someone teaches you how to use it, but If you find a vintage piece it is hard to find the resources.

    Dude I didn't know you fly airplanes ! that's pretty cool ! I am getting my private soon!!

  3. #13
    Supporting Member spyder360 is an unknown quantity at this point spyder360's Avatar
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    Re: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHuaSEALs  View Original Post
    I agree , diving any unit even OC can not be taken lightly, as they say in Florida every week they pull a dead body out of the water, 90 percent is human error that kills him/her.

    most the time it's just dude chasing a fish taking 1000 pictures then forgot to check the air.

    especially with rebreathers, O2 RB and tec-CCR shares a lot of similarity and I gotta say diving O2 RB are easier in some cases, It would always be great to have someone teaches you how to use it, but If you find a vintage piece it is hard to find the resources.

    Dude I didn't know you fly airplanes ! that's pretty cool ! I am getting my private soon!!
    Nice to hear on the private pilot cert Joe, good luck with it! Many parallels with rebreather diving and flying - situational awareness, systematic scanning of instruments, be wary that your equipment can kill you at any time are critical. I had two single engine airplanes quit on me in flight, wouldn't be here today if I didn't follow procedures - analogous to CCR diving. Following check lists or using acronyms is really helpful in making sure you don't forget things in both as well.

  4. #14
    rEvoooooo JoeHuaSEALs is an unknown quantity at this point JoeHuaSEALs's Avatar
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    Re: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by spyder360  View Original Post
    Nice to hear on the private pilot cert Joe, good luck with it! Many parallels with rebreather diving and flying - situational awareness, systematic scanning of instruments, be wary that your equipment can kill you at any time are critical. I had two single engine airplanes quit on me in flight, wouldn't be here today if I didn't follow procedures - analogous to CCR diving. Following check lists or using acronyms is really helpful in making sure you don't forget things in both as well.
    I could not agree more ! My instructor always pull engine on me randomly and be like " oh no you just lost your engine what you gonna do " it is always good training for me to not panic.


    although no one really knows what happens with rob stewart (RIP) earlier this year but even things can happen to the most experienced divers. It is always sad to hear an experienced diver passed away , but most of the incident happens to rebreathers the main cause is mainly human error or maybe physically unfit for a dive. When people have an heart attack under water and died, the news headline gonna be like " diver died while scuba diving" but If he had a heart attack while on the side walk no one would care a bit...

  5. #15
    rEvoooooo JoeHuaSEALs is an unknown quantity at this point JoeHuaSEALs's Avatar
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    Re: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jale  View Original Post
    +1000 with this :)
    That is one of the worst thing the certifying agencies are doing with this over certification tendencies which are now more and more followed by diving centres and ... insurances. "Terrible" as someone would say :)
    Indeed, it is becoming more and more the norm to need to have a card for each machine, for each depth, for each configuration, for ... everything...
    As diving an oxygen rebreather and always making these military's connections, it makes me laugh. Come on, it is not rocket science and you don't need to be a "Seal" or whatever "military-pseudo-hero title" to use a RB,
    Can we not talk about diving without always referring to army's activities? :)

    The every unit with new card is good for their business but not good for our wallet.... it is just the insurance agency are so over-protective that they can refuse cover the incident cause if you don't have a " card " says you are certified to dive your unit. Most unit share quite the similarity , but since Manufacturer and insurance company are on our way I don't think one C card all unit can happen any sooner...but It would be a dream . just " rebreather diver 40/60/100. no specific unit :)

  6. #16
    Supporting Member spyder360 is an unknown quantity at this point spyder360's Avatar
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    Red face Re: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeHuaSEALs  View Original Post
    I could not agree more ! My instructor always pull engine on me randomly and be like " oh no you just lost your engine what you gonna do " it is always good training for me to not panic.


    although no one really knows what happens with rob stewart (RIP) earlier this year but even things can happen to the most experienced divers. It is always sad to hear an experienced diver passed away , but most of the incident happens to rebreathers the main cause is mainly human error or maybe physically unfit for a dive. When people have an heart attack under water and died, the news headline gonna be like " diver died while scuba diving" but If he had a heart attack while on the side walk no one would care a bit...
    Pulling throttle on takeoff, landing, low/high, everywhere is the way to do it...a good instructor shouldn't be easy on you! I used to enjoy opening the window inflight on my students as well, particularly if they are task loading or get over confident . My CCR class was the same - instructor abused me, "broke" my breather in the midst of popping a marker, then pretended to be a panicked OC diver needing to share air (aka trying to rip my reg out of mouth). Train hard, makes the real world fight easier to manage.

    Same with flying, human errors are the primary source of fatalities in diving. Sometimes compounded by technical issues that are not human-error related, but not very often are there "no way out" issues. Like you said, health is another issue - don't think I'd be diving (or flying) much if obese and with coronary issues, recipe for disaster...

  7. #17
    Dark, cold and wet. DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ is a glorious beacon of light DwayneJ's Avatar
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    Re: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

    OK all... Lets play nice with each other and assume the best intentions. A couple of inappropriate posts have been deleted.

    Congrats on the new unit - Looks like it is in perfect condition!

    Dwayne
    Last edited by DwayneJ; 17th March 2017 at 05:52.

  8. #18
    Chett Lehrer Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L has much to be proud of Chett.L's Avatar
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    Re: My AMAZING Lar V and Tac-100 !!!

    WoW, Nice pictures!

    Thanks for posting.

    Best regards,
    Chett. L

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