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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    Quote Originally Posted by PSotis  View Original Post
    We all have different ones.
    I don't.

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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    Quote Originally Posted by rjack  View Original Post
    By what metric are rebreathers (and associated bailout) NOT complex? Simple to me is free diving and single tank diving. A rebreather is at least 2x the amount of crap as a single tank dive so how that can be defined as simple is beyond me. I thought its analysis was incredibly fluffy and sugar coated but hey it was a marketing piece - they can publish whatever they want.

    I don't think you can compare CCR with single tank dive as a metric of simple. Sitting by a pond feeding squirrels is even simpler. It's an underwater breathing apparatus. One thing that got me interested in pursuing CCR is how simple they actually are. My friends would take theirs apart and Id think "jeez, there's nothing to that thing". Id put up arguments like your "relying on those sensors to mix a breathable gas for you?" They would then point out I'm doing the same thing- just in my garage with two sensors (and math)! Compared to a single tank no-deco air dive a RB isn't simple, but at some point when the mix/gas supply is dictated/limited by depth, the CCR starts to shine. Well at least I hope...., I just spent a boat load on one!

  3. #13
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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    Quote Originally Posted by PSotis  View Original Post
    I can see why some people might take issue with the point-of-view offered in some of the points listed here. It's easy to take apart opinions and points-of-view, as we all differ on these sorts of things.
    Quote Originally Posted by PSotis  View Original Post
    See, that's the really great thing about points-of-view. We all have different ones. The problems begin when we start feeling like someone does not have a right to their point-of-view. We don't have to agree to have respect for one another.
    Points of view and opinions are fine. Everyone is entitled to their own points of view and opinions. They are not entitled to their own facts however. The dictionary definition of complex is "consisting of many different and connected parts". Now, which part of that doesn't describe a rebreather?!! I agree that at a high level the principles are simple enough... but the "myth" that they are supposed to be debunking doesn't refer to that at all as far as I can see ie their statement is not correct or inaccurate. Maybe it is a language barrier thing...?

    As for a lack of respect, is questioning a training agency's statement as above demonstrating a lack of respect, or are you suggesting that to show due respect, their statements need to be met with a reverent silence followed by a faint sigh of appreciation?!! I'm sure you're not but how can this be healthy for a forum or for the community in general if people/agencies can make statements that must go unchallenged no matter what the reason for the concerns because they represent an agency and they will walk away in a huff if they are questioned?!!

    Quote Originally Posted by PSotis  View Original Post
    Training agencies play an important role in our industry and I feel we would be better off if they participated more with the sport, outside their own domain. This article, I believe, was an attempt by TDI to participate and bring about their perspective. I find that encouraging and refreshing. It would be great to see more of this by more training agencies. I applaud their effort!
    Quote Originally Posted by PSotis  View Original Post
    I still stand by my statement that training agencies have stayed in the background for far too long and should take a more active role in engaging the diving population...its the only way they will ever get a good read on what the industry needs.
    I agree absolutely, but they of all people should be correct and accurate - my statements are my opinion; theirs can be taken to represent their agency, so accuracy should be key surely?!! I don't teach CCR diving (I don't feel I know enough about it or am good enough as a rebreather diver to do so) but what I have found when I was going through my instructor courses is that actually, beneath the teaching materials, there is often another layer of detail and reasoning that isn't essential to the courses as-taught but explains a lot for those who want to know the nth degree. If this is what an agency is going to bring to the discussion, then I absolutely agree that the agencies need to get involved more because there's a lot we can learn from each other that goes beyond a course sylabus. But I'm afraid this article isn't anything like that and smacks of being superficial to the point of being wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by PSotis  View Original Post
    Of course, after some of the remarks already posted, maybe we can see why they choose not to participate.
    Really?!! If they're that sensitive to criticism or challenge, might I suggest a different career for them?!! This is hardly a robust challenge and to be honest, a few minutes of careful sanity-checking by someone other than the author should have shown up the problems or predicted the questions that would arise. Yes, it could be read as a sales pitch but that doesn't bother me - that's what these companies do for a living, so it is not surprising. Speaking for myself, I like it when I get students who ask me the tough questions and really make me think very hard about what I'm saying and why. Yes, it can be uncomfortable - no one likes being put on the spot - but it makes me really have to cut through the slogans that make up many courses (I teach recreational OC stuff) to dig into the background information and get at the the "why?"s, not just parrot "headlines". The people who are behind this article should have access to more detailed information than I do as a diver and I would very much like to hear more about it, so I join you in urging them to engage more fully but I also urge them to not post things that are wrong/misleading and most importantly, I urge them to get used to the rough-n-tumble of direct public scrutiny - this forum is frequented by some serious players in this field (as divers, educators, scientists etc. Not me, I might add!) and they seem to manage ok!!!

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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    Wow, I must say you are thorough. I do appreciate the time you took to respond and what might surprise you is how much I personally agree with you. Before I respond, let me say that my intended position on this entire perspective is that the training agencies should be more involved. That's it. Let the chips fall where they may should they get involved...but they have been dormant far too long and should take more of a role in the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by jturner  View Original Post
    Points of view and opinions are fine. Everyone is entitled to their own points of view and opinions. They are not entitled to their own facts however. The dictionary definition of complex is "consisting of many different and connected parts". Now, which part of that doesn't describe a rebreather?!! I agree that at a high level the principles are simple enough... but the "myth" that they are supposed to be debunking doesn't refer to that at all as far as I can see ie their statement is not correct or inaccurate. Maybe it is a language barrier thing...?
    I see this as perspective. You don't. I see it as they are trying to describe that the overall collection leads to a less complex solution. You are keeping it more direct on the number of components. Again, perspective. Depending on how you choose to read it, you get what you want out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jturner  View Original Post
    for a lack of respect, is questioning a training agency's statement as above demonstrating a lack of respect, or are you suggesting that to show due respect, their statements need to be met with a reverent silence followed by a faint sigh of appreciation?!! I'm sure you're not but how can this be healthy for a forum or for the community in general if people/agencies can make statements that must go unchallenged no matter what the reason for the concerns because they represent an agency and they will walk away in a huff if they are questioned?!!
    As for respect. Training agencies and their current information the way it stands should be held accountable for how much bullshit they sling. Ask anyone who ever took one of my classes how often I say this. But here's the thing...until they get out in the open we can't confront them on 50-year-old information or convoluted information so many of them currently offer, so it will never change. My statement about respect was not meant that we need to kiss their ass. My statement was to the loads of participants that can't have a debate without being disrespectful and know I am right about this. If someone does not see it or read it as they did, they attack them. That garbage needs to end as it serves no one.


    Quote Originally Posted by jturner  View Original Post
    correct and accurate - my statements are my opinion; theirs can be taken to represent their agency, so accuracy should be key surely?!! I don't teach CCR diving (I don't feel I know enough about it or am good enough as a rebreather diver to do so) but what I have found when I was going through my instructor courses is that actually, beneath the teaching materials, there is often another layer of detail and reasoning that isn't essential to the courses as-taught but explains a lot for those who want to know the nth degree. If this is what an agency is going to bring to the discussion, then I absolutely agree that the agencies need to get involved more because there's a lot we can learn from each other that goes beyond a course sylabus. But I'm afraid this article isn't anything like that and smacks of being superficial to the point of being wrong.
    I could not agree more with you on this matter. All I teach is CCR and I have so much to say on this subject that it would make your head bleed just reading it. But as I said, until they engage more often and until we engage them with some common respect, I don't feel the problems will ever be corrected. I could be wrong, but that is my perspective as someone who is desperate to see the system change.


    Quote Originally Posted by jturner  View Original Post
    If they're that sensitive to criticism or challenge, might I suggest a different career for them?!! This is hardly a robust challenge and to be honest, a few minutes of careful sanity-checking by someone other than the author should have shown up the problems or predicted the questions that would arise. Yes, it could be read as a sales pitch but that doesn't bother me - that's what these companies do for a living, so it is not surprising. Speaking for myself, I like it when I get students who ask me the tough questions and really make me think very hard about what I'm saying and why. Yes, it can be uncomfortable - no one likes being put on the spot - but it makes me really have to cut through the slogans that make up many courses (I teach recreational OC stuff) to dig into the background information and get at the the "why?"s, not just parrot "headlines". The people who are behind this article should have access to more detailed information than I do as a diver and I would very much like to hear more about it, so I join you in urging them to engage more fully but I also urge them to not post things that are wrong/misleading and most importantly, I urge them to get used to the rough-n-tumble of direct public scrutiny - this forum is frequented by some serious players in this field (as divers, educators, scientists etc. Not me, I might add!) and they seem to manage ok!!!
    I think they should be able to take it. But the thing I find most interesting is how some people prefer to make obnoxious and attacking posts than to have a mature exchange of ideas. In some way's it defines how different schools of thoughts threaten them and they prefer to remain ignorant. I do know most of them who do this would never do so in person, but on the internet it seems to be acceptable. If you want to see positive exchange of ideas and conversations that actually do take the industry forward, this type of engagement needs to be curbed. That does not mean someone can't call it as they see it. It just means, let's try to be constructive instead of destructive. Why is that so hard for some people to understand?

    Thanks for all of your input. I hope you see that we are not that far apart in our thinking.
    Last edited by PSotis; 18th January 2016 at 11:57.

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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    The piece was prety light on content and I was wondering why the validation of CCR didnt inlude the gas cost (my primary reasion for getting one) and why the cell check by dill flush didnt include the current limiting check using manual 02 add?

    Id also have pointed out that the high mortality rate per unit sold experianced 15+ years ago doesent stand up in these more enlightened times.

    As experianced CCR divers it wasn't worth reading but as a total newbee it could be considered of limited use.

    Problem is the artical was put out as if it was for existing CCR divers?

    The issue of CCR complexity seems odd to me. Its esier in many ways to do a 100m dive on a CCR than on twinset and stages but obviously a single mix dive is easier on
    oc.

    The CCR truth I try and get accros to potential CCR divers is that the unit wont do the dive for you and no matter how many buzzers and whistles it has the diveing diciplin is exactly the same as on a KISS type unit with nothing added.

    The lie I try and expose is fancy units are required to stay alive and that servicing, fresh scrubbers and regular cell replacement will negate the need for vigulance.

    ATB

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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    I'm genuinely surprised to see as much vitriol about the entire topic. Both here and (even more) in the comments on the SDI/TDI site there seem to be the same sorts of mistrust and anger about CCR that I was hearing when I started nosing around and diving a rebreather almost 10 years ago.

    I'll never forget walking behind my instructor to the quarry water's edge and noticing an Open Water instructor going quiet as we walked by. Then, just after we'd passed (as though the doppler effect would render us unable to hear his hushed voice behind us), "Those are called rebreathers," he explained to his class, "That's an incredibly dangerous style of diving that will kill you."

    Nor will I forget the dive shop employee who wrestled the fact that I dove a rebreather out of me (I usually kept quiet about it around divers I didn't know for this very reason). I was just trying to buy some D-rings to build my wife a harness.
    "No, you need a new BC, you can't just fix a BC," was another part of this conversation, by the way.
    "Oh, a rebreather, huh? Do you have your will made out?"
    I didn't buy anything from that shop.

    I figured in recent years that sort of grumbling would have died down. Certainly see many more rebreathers around the springs/boats/quarry/internet.

    Or maybe I'm just paying more attention to rebreathers? I don't think so, I think they really are much more prevalent, but I'm willing to concede the possibility.

    On a positive note: one thing I'm really glad to see in this article is the point that no one really NEEDS a rebreather. I've had that conversation many times, people asking "Why do you need to dive that thing?" I don't. I figure that is the single strongest reason for diving a rebreather, honestly: they're cool and they're comfortable and they're fun.

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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    My dive buddy and I have done 2 dives as shore dives here no one else has ever done, merely because we had rebreathers to be able to do it without being an OC tank farm.

    We're preparing a deep deep dive soon, that will only be possible on a rebreather, again without being a massive tank farm on OC.

    Plus they are kewl... :)

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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    Quote Originally Posted by oya  View Original Post
    I'm genuinely surprised to see as much vitriol about the entire topic. Both here and (even more) in the comments on the SDI/TDI site there seem to be the same sorts of mistrust and anger about CCR that I was hearing when I started nosing around and diving a rebreather almost 10 years ago.

    I'll never forget walking behind my instructor to the quarry water's edge and noticing an Open Water instructor going quiet as we walked by. Then, just after we'd passed (as though the doppler effect would render us unable to hear his hushed voice behind us), "Those are called rebreathers," he explained to his class, "That's an incredibly dangerous style of diving that will kill you."

    Nor will I forget the dive shop employee who wrestled the fact that I dove a rebreather out of me (I usually kept quiet about it around divers I didn't know for this very reason). I was just trying to buy some D-rings to build my wife a harness.
    "No, you need a new BC, you can't just fix a BC," was another part of this conversation, by the way.
    "Oh, a rebreather, huh? Do you have your will made out?"
    I didn't buy anything from that shop.

    I figured in recent years that sort of grumbling would have died down. Certainly see many more rebreathers around the springs/boats/quarry/internet.

    Or maybe I'm just paying more attention to rebreathers? I don't think so, I think they really are much more prevalent, but I'm willing to concede the possibility.

    On a positive note: one thing I'm really glad to see in this article is the point that no one really NEEDS a rebreather. I've had that conversation many times, people asking "Why do you need to dive that thing?" I don't. I figure that is the single strongest reason for diving a rebreather, honestly: they're cool and they're comfortable and they're fun.
    Cant say I've seen much vitriol either here or on any of the comments. Maybe I have a thicker skin?

    It's interesting that people are reading criticism as an attack on rebreather diving.

    My criticism was simply that it isnt a very good article. For such a contentious title and an original description of "really interesting" I had expected it would've been a well balanced piece instead of "I sell rebreathers, they're great". If you're going to use absolutes like "truth" dont use it to sell your opinion.

    And somehow because you're not cheerleading yet another Thornton infomercial you're classed as a "douchebag".

    Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    Quote Originally Posted by oya  View Original Post
    I'm genuinely surprised to see as much vitriol about the entire topic. Both here and (even more) in the comments on the SDI/TDI site there seem to be the same sorts of mistrust and anger about CCR that I was hearing when I started nosing around and diving a rebreather almost 10 years ago.
    I must have missed the vitriol on here and I haven't checked the TDI site (though I shall) but I do agree it gets a bit boring dealing with the "you're going to DIE!" comments and the like. Luckily, situations like that are quite rare in the UK nowadays (unless when said in jest of course, in which case the use of a cable tie or a certain brand of clip or type of CCR will surely invite a load of teasing banter and expressions of despair and doom from a gaggle of your piss-taking buddies!).

  10. #20
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: "Divers Deserve the Truth about Rebreather Diving"-Article by TDI

    Quote Originally Posted by oya  View Original Post
    I'm genuinely surprised to see as much vitriol about the entire topic. Both here and (even more) in the comments on the SDI/TDI site there seem to be the same sorts of mistrust and anger about CCR that I was hearing when I started nosing around and diving a rebreather almost 10 years ago.

    I'll never forget walking behind my instructor to the quarry water's edge and noticing an Open Water instructor going quiet as we walked by. Then, just after we'd passed (as though the doppler effect would render us unable to hear his hushed voice behind us), "Those are called rebreathers," he explained to his class, "That's an incredibly dangerous style of diving that will kill you."

    Nor will I forget the dive shop employee who wrestled the fact that I dove a rebreather out of me (I usually kept quiet about it around divers I didn't know for this very reason). I was just trying to buy some D-rings to build my wife a harness.
    "No, you need a new BC, you can't just fix a BC," was another part of this conversation, by the way.
    "Oh, a rebreather, huh? Do you have your will made out?"
    I didn't buy anything from that shop.

    I figured in recent years that sort of grumbling would have died down. Certainly see many more rebreathers around the springs/boats/quarry/internet.

    Or maybe I'm just paying more attention to rebreathers? I don't think so, I think they really are much more prevalent, but I'm willing to concede the possibility.

    On a positive note: one thing I'm really glad to see in this article is the point that no one really NEEDS a rebreather. I've had that conversation many times, people asking "Why do you need to dive that thing?" I don't. I figure that is the single strongest reason for diving a rebreather, honestly: they're cool and they're comfortable and they're fun.
    In 2004 (my last year as an OC trimix diver) I spent £3600 on gas. Not diveing or boat fees JUST gas.

    I NEED a ccr

    With a single dive to 70m costing about £200 in trimix and deco gas I would say theres quite a few out there who genuinly need a CCR


    As for the artical. Its got a few misleading bits but is generaly far too light and doesent live up to its title. Aside from that its harmless.
    Last edited by Mark Chase; 19th January 2016 at 21:40.

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