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Thread: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

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    RBW Member NYCWreckdiver is an unknown quantity at this point NYCWreckdiver's Avatar
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    Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    Hi All,

    I am new to this forum and new to the rebreather world. To get straight to the point, I am going to be purchasing a new HammerHead Extreme CCR unit within the next few weeks but am stuck as to which electronics options to get. I am debating between the following and was hoping to gain some opinions as to which setup would be best, and why, as well as any negatives to the selections provided. I am currently debating between the following:

    Option A: Rev C+ primary with a Rev C+ secondary

    Option B: Rev C+ Primary with a Shearwater Petrel Secondary

    Option C: The new SubGravity SG-1 controller (primary) with a Shearwater petrel

    The new SG-1 defender model CCR from subgravity looks great, but I am hesitant given that the controller is new and is SG's first CCR controller, while Juergensen Marine's Rev C+ has been tried and tested over and over again and has been around for a while. Which would you pick and why? What are the downsides/negatives to your pick?

    Im leaning towards the Rev C+ with either Rev C+ or Petrel combo, thats really where I am stuck for now. I tend to like redundancy, and with one Rev C+ running the HUD and the other the solenoid I am leaning towards two Rev C+s just due to the redundancy. I've heard the display on the Rev C+ is a little annoying due to the fact that you have to wait for it to cycle through to see all of the data, but I wanted to get opinions on this as well. I would've gotten the Rev Ds but was alerted that theyre no longer available on new units.

    I am very new to the rebreather world (like super new) but have been an OC diver for a while now (going on 10 years) and want a controller I can depend on in any situation.

    Thanks for your guys' input!

  2. #2
    Supporting Member Karl_H is an unknown quantity at this point Karl_H's Avatar
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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    Firstly - Awesome choice in unit I think the actual configuration you opt for is a lot to do with personal preference, however I'd strongly advise you to discount Option A and look at either Option B or C.

    The Rev C is a great controller, but is somewhat bulky. The older model may have had some issues but as you mentioned the Rev C+ is ironed out all but a very, very few of them - especially with the larger 18650 battery cells.

    However, it is primarily a controller and not a computer. The secondary handset does not need to be a controller and I find the Rev C+ very difficult to read as it cycles through information on the screen as opposed to shows all parameters - this means you often need to wait a few seconds to see the cell PPO2 readings. The Rev C+ deco is functional but isn't the easiest to follow - basically the smaller form factor, better display and additional deco options make the Petrel a far, far better option in my opinion.

    The SG-1 is a new controller but by all accounts it does everything the Rev C+ does but in a smaller package and with a similar display/deco performance to the Petrel. I am currently diving the Rev C+ with Petrel and am seriously looking at switching the Rev C+ over to the SG-1 in the near future.

    Prior to switching to the Petrel secondary I was diving with a Rev D controller as the secondary and the Rev C+ as the primary and long before that I was diving two standard Rev Cs. The larger controller handsets are large and heavy and do tend to get in the way, I'm 6'3" so have pretty long arms and I struggled to find space for two handsets, a light and another back-up computer.

    Obviously as I said a lot is down to personal preference but I'd certainly suggest avoiding a pair of Rev C+'s and would take a much closer look at the SG-1 option. If you are not convinced you can do a lot, lot worse than a Rev C+ with a Petrel secondary, I tend to clip off the Rev C+ primary to the left hip D-ring and dive using the Petrel secondary and the DIVA (from the Primary) as a back-up. If the SG-1 does everything I want it to do then I'd no longer need to clip off the Primary controller.

    Hope that helps and once again, awesome choice in unit

    Karl

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    RBW Member Jevets is an unknown quantity at this point Jevets's Avatar
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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    I am/was in the same position. I decided to go with Option C due to the smaller size and it appears to be easier to read, and with recommendations from my instructor.

    I don't get the HH until my course starts in a couple of weeks...Christmas comes late for me

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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    Options A and B are not even worth considering and this is due to my past experience with Juergensen Marine failures.

    If you check into the Shearwater proven track record and their awesome customer support, you will not doubt come to the conclusion that it would be impossible to go wrong with their products.

    Although the new SG-1 electronics have no history to check up on, I have listened to the trials and errors of beta testers and the implemented changes before coming to market. I am convinced that it would be a better, safer, and more reliable choice than JM.

    BTW, I am saving my nickels to get one with option C after an in depth demo day with SubGravity.
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    RBW Member NYCWreckdiver is an unknown quantity at this point NYCWreckdiver's Avatar
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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    Thanks all for the input, I greatly appreciate the help. After doing a little more research and asking around my local dive community, I agree- Two rev C+s is not the best option. I really appreciate all of your input to this thread and im sure youll see plenty more post from me in the future regarding random other topics. Just to get some more intel on this decision-

    in what ways would the SG-1 Defender model be better than a Rev C+ with Shearwater secondary? Why?

    As I've seen on here the SG-1 in beta testing did well to correct for any potential issues in its initial trials, but would I eventually have to worry about additional issues arising and having to upgrade the SG-1 down the road? Would that upgrade be a software issue in your opinion?

    Besides the Rev C+ being bulky, what other downsides are there? Are there any videos showing the interface (ive looked but havent had any luck). I know the cycling through the display can be a pain (as ive heard). Im leaning towards an SG-1 Primary with a Shearwater Secondary at this point.

    thank you all again for the help/suggestions, any more advice is greatly appreciated!

  6. #6
    Supporting Member Karl_H is an unknown quantity at this point Karl_H's Avatar
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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCWreckdiver  View Original Post
    in what ways would the SG-1 Defender model be better than a Rev C+ with Shearwater secondary? Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by NYCWreckdiver  View Original Post
    Besides the Rev C+ being bulky, what other downsides are there? Are there any videos showing the interface (ive looked but havent had any luck). I know the cycling through the display can be a pain (as ive heard). Im leaning towards an SG-1 Primary with a Shearwater Secondary at this point.
    For me, the single biggest pain is the menu cycling on the Rev C+ and the physical size/weight of the controller - the other big drawback is that the Deco software on the Rev C+, well, basically doesn't work. It will get you out of the water but until the last few stop it just feeds ridiculous information, you'll often have a TTS of under an hour on the Petrel and over 1000 minutes TTS on the Rev C+.

    I know of very few people who actually use the Rev C+ for any kind of deco, most of us just ignore the deco software on it and use the petrel secondary plus a standalone computer with a fixed PPO2.

    Don't get me wrong, the Rev C+ is a good controller but it's not a good computer - if there were 3 areas to improve it it would be the display view, resolving the decompression output problems and making it smaller and lighter - from what I can see the SG-1 ticks all the boxes here.

    The only potential downside I can see with the SG-1 over the Rev C+ is that the battery in the SG-1 is internal - this can also be an advantage but I always associate internal batteries with the Liquivision X1 computers that seemed to have problems with the batteries every few months and spent twice as long being repaired as actually being used. That said, the customer service at SubGravity is pretty much as good as it gets so can't really be compared to that of Liquivision.

    It's also worth noting that the SG-1 controller is used in other CCR units also (although it also a new controller there too) so isn't a one-off development.

  7. #7
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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    Let's talk separately about primary controllers and secondary monitors, starting with the primary. I tend to agree mostly with Karl. With all due respect to my friend DSix, his issues with JM have been well documented in the forums for years, but relate to old issues that have been principally addressed, refined and fixed. So if you would refuse to buy a Toyota or an Audi because of well known problems they had years ago, then you should rule out JM electronics. I agree with Karl that the Rev C units are great controllers and only ok as computers. In fact my JM controllers achieved and held setpoint faster and tighter than my Shearwater units. They are definitely bigger and bulkier. That's the reason I never upgraded to Rev D. Those were huge. But Shearwater is not an option as a controller. So that leaves you with the Rev C+ or the SG1 from X-CCR. That one looks great and is filled with features. It is produced overseas (as is most of the rebreather itself) but will be supported in their usual outstanding fashion by the good folks at Subgravity. If it had a longer proven track record, I would not hesitate. Being new, you have to ask whether you are an early adopter. Better features and grasping the future vs the proven but stodgy past. A tough decision.

    As for the secondary, my opinion is that I almost never looked at mine when I had one. My secondary Rev C+ was used to drive the DIVA. I looked at the HUD, not the handset, which was clipped off or in a pocket. That left room for a standalone fixed pO2 computer on my right arm. I did not have deco information on my secondary Rev C since that was an additional cost option that I felt was unnecessary. If I had upgraded it to Rev D where deco information was available directly from the HUD, I might have sprung for the deco option. But that's not worth considering at this point. My Shearwater secondaries were all freestanding or Fischer connected. So the question you should ask is what kind of HUD you prefer. What are the HUD options in your options A, B, and C above? Have you looked at them for features, visibility and mounting options? What about isolation? Are they truly redundant? Or at least as much as possible when sharing cells? I think the choice of HUD is at least as important as the choice of controller. I look at my HUD far more than my wrist.

    Just my $0.02. Worth at least double that price.


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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    A friend of mine and someone whom opinion in diving I respect greatly just received his new HH last week. He trains mid January. He looked closely at everything, spoke with the product owners at length, and went with the new SG-1.

    He seems to be extremely confident in his decision.

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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    Quote Originally Posted by manni-yunk  View Original Post
    He seems to be extremely confident in his decision.
    One thing I have come to recognize as an irrefutable fact is that no matter how equivocal or borderline a purchase decision was to make, people will defend it with confidence and vigor right up until the point that they sell it to buy something else.
    Ken

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsix36  View Original Post
    Just remember that listening to an idiot such as myself may very well get your arse dead.

  10. #10
    Supporting Member Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36 has a reputation beyond repute Dsix36's Avatar
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    Re: Hammerhead Electronics Question SubGravity SG-1 vs JM Rev C+

    With the JM stuff, you will be locked into the current firmware for their electronics since it is not something that a user can interface with. The SG-1 has a USB interface and any new updates or revisions can be made easily by the user when available.

    Ken was correct that the JM stuff has made some changes and improvements but I still hear about reliability issues from users. I am over getting into pissing matches about it, but would definitely prefer to be a beta tester for a complete unknown rather than risk using JM electronics again. Please remember that there are divers who had much better luck than I did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwinter  View Original Post
    I could just be blowing smoke out my butt.
    Quote Originally Posted by kwinter  View Original Post
    And note the wisdom from DSix36
    MY ADVICE AND POSTS ARE WORTH EXACTLY WHAT YOU PAID FOR THEM!!!!!!
    POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IS SO YESTERDAY AND I AM DONE WITH IT!!!!!

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