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Thread: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

  1. #11
    Dive addict taliena is an unknown quantity at this point taliena's Avatar
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    Re: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

    Things can go fast, maybe you will start trimixdiving after just a few months. And then already you need another ccr? I started with an inspiration Vision. Because I knew I wanted to do deep long dives. And so I needed an ccr that can be used over 330ft. I bought it second hand, so then the price is not so high. And yes, just in a few months I dived it with trimix and in caves. So I would never start with a unit with a depht limit.

  2. #12
    RBW Member pmane01 is an unknown quantity at this point pmane01's Avatar
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    Re: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

    All,

    Thank you for many good answers, it would definitively help me narrow the field down to Technical CCR which can be used both E and M. For used versus old, i understand he inherited risks and the very point made that this is life sustaining equipment.

    I have indeed contacted add helium in Florida to see if I could arrange a couple of days to test several units even if just in the pool.

    Since you are so forthcoming with helping new comers I would like to ask you a few more questions.

    1. What are your thoughts on ECRR that can be used as an MCCR solenoid mode of failure, if understand right some solenoid would fail in the completely closed position to ensure no excessive oxygen is put in the loop and leave it completely to the manual injector (i presume some would argue that if eCCR system fails it would be time to bailout and forget about operating the CCR in manual); other eCCR seems to switch to mCCR with the solenoid in the close position but with an orifice in place which provide a constant however small oxygen supply in the loop? thoughts?

    2. Likely there is already a trend out there, understanding what is better back mounted lungs, or shoulder mounted. Certainly something I want to try in the water more. I presume coming from OC i was really uncomfortable with the poseidon shoulder lungs requiring always to turn your body in the position of vision; intuition tells me that back mounted lungs probably suite me best even if there is no escape as you need to have the hoses on either side, but probably for photography would eventually help. Phelps someone has experience with both and can provide some prospective of which of the two application is better for which environment.

    3. What is the opinion of the redundant CO2 scrubber, i.e. the REVO or Orca Spirit (likely off my list per above), to me seems that the concept make sense also to mitigate potential risks of packing it correctly? why wouldn't other manufacturer go that way (weight? the revo seems to be managing weight?)

    4. Posidon workshop was very pushy on the fact that you do not need to fill your scrubber as it prevents additionally risk if unpacked incorrectly, again I am perplexed if this is such a big issue why industry did not embrace prefilled scrubber more extensively, for those of you that usually pack their own scrubber is there indeed so much risk as the Poseidon rep seems to be articulating. Certainly I can see the convenience of shipping and transport pre filled can, never the less likely the cost is higher for the added plastic and services provided.

    Thanks so much for all your knowledge transfer again. I really appreciate it.

    Hopefully one day I ll be able to give back to the forum with some answer myself.

    Regards,

    Pier

  3. #13
    Dave Tomblin wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc's Avatar
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    Re: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

    Quote Originally Posted by pmane01  View Original Post
    All,

    Thank you for many good answers, it would definitively help me narrow the field down to Technical CCR which can be used both E and M. For used versus old, i understand he inherited risks and the very point made that this is life sustaining equipment.

    I have indeed contacted add helium in Florida to see if I could arrange a couple of days to test several units even if just in the pool.

    Since you are so forthcoming with helping new comers I would like to ask you a few more questions.

    1. What are your thoughts on ECRR that can be used as an MCCR solenoid mode of failure, if understand right some solenoid would fail in the completely closed position to ensure no excessive oxygen is put in the loop and leave it completely to the manual injector (i presume some would argue that if eCCR system fails it would be time to bailout and forget about operating the CCR in manual); other eCCR seems to switch to mCCR with the solenoid in the close position but with an orifice in place which provide a constant however small oxygen supply in the loop? thoughts?

    2. Likely there is already a trend out there, understanding what is better back mounted lungs, or shoulder mounted. Certainly something I want to try in the water more. I presume coming from OC i was really uncomfortable with the poseidon shoulder lungs requiring always to turn your body in the position of vision; intuition tells me that back mounted lungs probably suite me best even if there is no escape as you need to have the hoses on either side, but probably for photography would eventually help. Phelps someone has experience with both and can provide some prospective of which of the two application is better for which environment.

    3. What is the opinion of the redundant CO2 scrubber, i.e. the REVO or Orca Spirit (likely off my list per above), to me seems that the concept make sense also to mitigate potential risks of packing it correctly? why wouldn't other manufacturer go that way (weight? the revo seems to be managing weight?)

    4. Posidon workshop was very pushy on the fact that you do not need to fill your scrubber as it prevents additionally risk if unpacked incorrectly, again I am perplexed if this is such a big issue why industry did not embrace prefilled scrubber more extensively, for those of you that usually pack their own scrubber is there indeed so much risk as the Poseidon rep seems to be articulating. Certainly I can see the convenience of shipping and transport pre filled can, never the less likely the cost is higher for the added plastic and services provided.

    Thanks so much for all your knowledge transfer again. I really appreciate it.

    Hopefully one day I ll be able to give back to the forum with some answer myself.

    Regards,

    Pier
    A failed solenoid is essentially a non issue. I teach my students to run the CCR manually using the solenoid just to fire when lack of attention or task loading causes you to lose focus on the manual setpoint. That way if you were to have a failure of the solenoid you just continue in manual mode and end the dive gracefully.
    You have to have a rebreather that will allow that mode of operation though.
    Cheers,

    Dave....

    www.wedivebc.com

  4. #14
    RBW Member andrespp is on a distinguished road andrespp is on a distinguished road andrespp's Avatar
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    Re: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

    1. Many eCCR can be used in mCCR mode, and leave the electronics just as a ppO2 parachute. An eCCR with an orifice it is called an hybrid CCR (hCCR), but I am under the impression that there are not many of these hccrs out there.

    2. Counterlungs. Backmounted vs OTS....there are pros and cons for each option. Back mounted CPs leave your chest uncluttered meanwhile OTS have better WOB.

    3. Redundant scrubber. In my opinion, it is a "nice to have" option. Standard scrubbers, either axial or radial, make the job and are really easy to prepare.

    4.If that is the position of Poseidon wrt scrubbers, it is plain bullshit. My unit has an axial scrubber and it is really easy to prepare, and it takes only one minute to do it.

  5. #15
    RBW Member marcbeaudry is an unknown quantity at this point marcbeaudry's Avatar
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    Re: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

    i'm a few short months ahead of you and went down the very same road.
    i had setup to dive 3 different current eCCR's and the shop owner/instructor's own personal KissClassic which is heavily modified . I really WANTED to like the poseidon 7. i dove three eCCR's and at the end of the third dive was truly about to give up on CCR altogether, it wasn't for me , i didn't like the experience ... i got talked into 'just one more' it was the kiss and ended up training on that - and subsequently buying a used classic explorer ,* i'd also recommend having a used unit checked out - although in learning to dive it and certifying on it- you need to learn to 'check it out' yourself regardless - but it would be a shame to show up for class 1 on your 'new' rebreather and have a unit needing too much work to allow you to take your class.

    i'm not advocating the kiss classic explorer , or any particular brand- although
    I do love mine.

    since the day i almost packed it in, and said no to CCR of any type - i recognize that the thing i did right - was try a few CCR - all with different characteristics, issues, pros and cons - i since learned enough about each of them to recognize that despite NOT liking my first (pre-training) experiences on them - that the traits about each machine that i didn't like - for the most part - could all be worked around.

    The other thing i learned was that not being pressured into XYZ brand of device was important ( to me) it's pretty hard to find a shop or instructor who won't share brand loyalty, all instructors are certified to teach on a (or a quantity) specific brands - and their investment into that certification is going to tend to sway them to push said brands, same goes for the majority of shops - which is just good common sense - don't be looking for Chevrolet's at the Hyundai dealership . i really wanted the Sevens' sexy packaging- it embarrasses me to admit it now) - All will sell you and advocate advantages of one machine vs another, or the work-arounds for xyz brand to achieve the same functions as ABC brand.

    Recommendations such as - who are you diving with and WHAT are they diving are great - finding yourself with support and like minded folk is a great tool and advantage and an intelligent recommendation.
    If you're after a particular name brand -find the instructor with who you have an affinity to work with and learn from - likely the most critical part of the puzzle in my opinion. To learn the machine is one thing - to learn what is going on behind the electronics (should you chose to go the eCCR route) and 'GET it' all is entirely another.
    in my opinion your instructor choice is likely more important than your brand selection - there is a minimum training required for any device or there is real training to get you thinking beyond that brands requirements - look for that , discuss your plans, discuss where you think you want to go and work with someone to put you in the right place to attain those objectives. Find the right person to help you get there . A lot of instructors will teach you the legal requirement of the agency they represent which are intended to respect the manufacturers requirements - great , thats a good and essential part of it, but
    if you're saying you know you want to go from rec to tec -look for someone who you're comfortable with who can work with you to take you there over the long term irrespective of what colour the rebreather you chose is.

    good luck

    marc

  6. #16
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

    Failed Solinoid

    As long as you can add 02 manualy yo can safley finish the dive

    HOWEVER

    If you're on a week long dve trip and have a failed solinoid it is very nice to A: have a unit that wont gett fussy about it and will just let y dive & B: have a MCCR back up needle valve so you can do the dives easily as apposed to constant faf of manual inject

    PERESONALY

    A hybrid unit is a great idea and i'd lern to dive it as a MCCR using the electronic solinod as back up only and you will lern a LOT about how a CCR uses 02 and that information is very valuble at teaching you when its critical you monitor your PP02

    Some will say its critical all the time but trust me, after the novelty wears of you will laps into ocasional checks.


    Duel Scrubbers?

    Excelent for minimising the use of lime so if thats an issue its a good choice.

    Excelent in the rEvo design for a super low profile unit. I owned a rEvo and I liked that aspect very much

    Not so good for preporation as two scrubbers to prep not one.

    Safety? not relevent. Theres no great safety advantage


    Rear Mounted Lungs

    I have had both and I prefer rear mounts. Definate advantage in equipment access definate safety advantage in accessing tight spots. Front lungs get punctured more easily

    Front lungs are warmer and most have better / easier flood recovery than rear mounts all are more flood tolerant than most rear mounts

    Most front lungs make conecting off board gas easy and I miss that about my Inspo Classic but not enough for me to want to go back to it.


    ATB

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark Chase; 21st November 2014 at 10:03.

  7. #17
    RBW Member Nate Davey is an unknown quantity at this point Nate Davey's Avatar
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    Re: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

    With regards to how much rebreather to buy, I was in an area where there were no other RB divers. It was my philosophy, good or bad, that it was better to spend the extra $$$$ on my life support equipment. So I did a lot of reading and forum lurking, understanding that everyone is biased to their system.

    I don't trust electronics in water, so wanted something I could, and do, run manually.

    There's a saying in woodturning, and probably every other hobby, you can turn small things on a big lathe, but you can't turn big things on a small lathe. In my mind, the same goes for RBs. You can do small dives on a really good system, but you can't big dives on "small" system.

    Modularity is nice too.

    So, in the end, I saved up my money and bought what I thought to be the best system. Found a really good instructor who made me run my eCCR manually and did a lot of small dives. Will I use the system to it's fullest potential, probably not, but I have the option.

    Good luck with your journey, it's fun. Let us know how it goes.

  8. #18
    RBW Member ntokyo is an unknown quantity at this point ntokyo's Avatar
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    Re: Beginners - First Purchase Recreational vs Techincal CC

    Quote Originally Posted by pmane01  View Original Post
    All,

    Thank you for many good answers, it would definitively help me narrow the field down to Technical CCR which can be used both E and M. For used versus old, i understand he inherited risks and the very point made that this is life sustaining equipment.

    I have indeed contacted add helium in Florida to see if I could arrange a couple of days to test several units even if just in the pool.

    Since you are so forthcoming with helping new comers I would like to ask you a few more questions.

    1. What are your thoughts on ECRR that can be used as an MCCR solenoid mode of failure, if understand right some solenoid would fail in the completely closed position to ensure no excessive oxygen is put in the loop and leave it completely to the manual injector (i presume some would argue that if eCCR system fails it would be time to bailout and forget about operating the CCR in manual); other eCCR seems to switch to mCCR with the solenoid in the close position but with an orifice in place which provide a constant however small oxygen supply in the loop? thoughts?

    2. Likely there is already a trend out there, understanding what is better back mounted lungs, or shoulder mounted. Certainly something I want to try in the water more. I presume coming from OC i was really uncomfortable with the poseidon shoulder lungs requiring always to turn your body in the position of vision; intuition tells me that back mounted lungs probably suite me best even if there is no escape as you need to have the hoses on either side, but probably for photography would eventually help. Phelps someone has experience with both and can provide some prospective of which of the two application is better for which environment.

    3. What is the opinion of the redundant CO2 scrubber, i.e. the REVO or Orca Spirit (likely off my list per above), to me seems that the concept make sense also to mitigate potential risks of packing it correctly? why wouldn't other manufacturer go that way (weight? the revo seems to be managing weight?)

    4. Posidon workshop was very pushy on the fact that you do not need to fill your scrubber as it prevents additionally risk if unpacked incorrectly, again I am perplexed if this is such a big issue why industry did not embrace prefilled scrubber more extensively, for those of you that usually pack their own scrubber is there indeed so much risk as the Poseidon rep seems to be articulating. Certainly I can see the convenience of shipping and transport pre filled can, never the less likely the cost is higher for the added plastic and services provided.

    Thanks so much for all your knowledge transfer again. I really appreciate it.

    Hopefully one day I ll be able to give back to the forum with some answer myself.

    Regards,

    Pier

    Hello,

    I am and mCCR diver, dove on rEvo several years and switch to Meg Copis recently.

    1. Possibility to switch to manual is a must for me. Bailing out means aborting a dive. As long you can read your PO2, it is fine and gives you more options. Questions of hybrid is very relevant. Hybrid have the merit of being less solenoid intensive, but still a solenoid is needed, with its possibility of failure. Not sure one is more safe than the other...
    The Hybrid will gives you also one more step in the pre-dive check (no big but you will have to check the flow rate).

    2. This is something that should carefully look at. As a OC diver, you want to favor back-mounted rebreather. Look also at the Top of Shoulder type, with is in between. For the WOB, I would not worry.

    3. Yes, I loved the rEvo for this. But a Megalodon with proper water traps is very nice too. And quite resistant to flooding with excellent ability to recover. For this, I felt rEvo weaker.
    For packing this was not something that bothered me... 2 packing for rEvo is fine but you will need to manage rotation of 2 scrubbers and make very careful markings.

    4. Not a huge selling point for me...

    Coming from OC, you should also consider the ability to service the machine easily every year, and get access to parts easily to service some items by yourself, without sending the whole machine.
    You will not find Poseidon or JJ parts everywhere. rEvo and Megalodon parts can be accessed anywhere in the world and distributed by 3rd parties online. I wanted a machine I could fix myself in Japan...

    Going into details you should look at the OPV and ADV position and options. How to shut off the ADV with back-mounted (not possible with rEvo) ? Position of OPV and how can you manage sensibility.

    Also think of the electronic. Even with a mCCR I like to have the computer inline. Shearwater seems to be the standard now.

    Going with a new "electronic" machine, I would likely consider the Pathfinder, very versatile. Different lung options, hybrid possible, iCAN, 3 hours radial scrubber, very compact... A personal opinion.

    Kind Regards,

    Nicolas
    Last edited by ntokyo; 23rd November 2014 at 07:48.

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