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Thread: Second hand certification police

  1. #1
    Prism 'prentice Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike's Avatar
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    Prism

    Second hand certification police

    Why do we as divers flogging off second hand bits of plumbing and basic electronics think that we need to enforce certification?
    For various reasons of indecision I've been reading more 'for sale' posts than I ever have before, and I've noticed that a lot of sellers are stipulating that they will require proof of certification before they sell their unit.
    Why?
    I don't recall seeing this for second hand goods sales anywhere else. The onus is always on the person buying / using a piece of kit to ensure that they are able to use it - both 'legally' and practicually. Why are do we think rebreathers are special? Conceptually, they are simpler than a basic reg to use, so why make such a big deal?

    Living in the arse end of the world in Australia, perhaps I don't see the same issues as others, but it makes no sense to me.

    I've sold most of a rebreather (actually all of a rebreather that was mostly functional) plus bought another one as spares in the last couple of months, and in both instances certification wasn't even mentioned. I don't feel any responsibility to the person who bought the unit from me to ensure that they know how to use it. Likewise the idea that I'd blame the person I bought what effectively amounts to a collection of spares from, for any mishap is laughable.

    So for those who insist on it, why do you do it?

    Mike
    (Oh - the reason for the question is that I've been trying to decide whether to replace my prism for a while now. A couple of units that I would have been interested in have come up with the 'no sale without cert' line attached, so for now I've just bought another Prism so will stick with that)

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    RBW Member uwxplorer is on a distinguished road uwxplorer is on a distinguished road uwxplorer's Avatar
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    Re: Second hand certification police

    Sharks?

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    RBW Member Mike_Eitel is an unknown quantity at this point Mike_Eitel's Avatar
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    Re: Second hand certification police

    +1

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    It's Hammertime! Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski is a name known to all Pawel Szopinski's Avatar
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    Re: Second hand certification police

    It lets me sleep at night.

    Knowing that the buyer is certified or planning a course IMHO does reduce certain risks from the sale - not only the buyer is less likely to kill or injure themselves, but also they will have less questions before and after the transaction is completed.

    Common sense obviously applies, especially if you know the buyer and everyone's consciousness is different...
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    RBW Member MikeWebb is a jewel in the rough MikeWebb is a jewel in the rough MikeWebb is a jewel in the rough MikeWebb is a jewel in the rough MikeWebb is a jewel in the rough MikeWebb is a jewel in the rough MikeWebb is a jewel in the rough MikeWebb's Avatar
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    Second hand certification police

    Plus who is to even say the the cert provided is actually for the person buying it or has just been a total photoshop fabrication. I'm with you Mike.

    I'm thinking about selling a unit and my way of thinking is if I don't include cells or any orings (service kit provided) with the unit in a few bits, that really is puting the responsibility on the buyer for there own safe diving of the unit.


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  6. #6
    All IMVHO obviously... Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field's Avatar
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    Re: Second hand certification police

    Local regulations may differ- here you do not require any certification at all to dive anything relationally. IMO Sellers are just arse-covering, ignorant of the fact it really provides no cover (in this country) at all, might be different in an Ambulance chaser country like the USA.

    What really annoys me is how the Insurance companies take these non-compulsory, unregulated training courses as evidence of competence and base their prices on it.

  7. #7
    Dive addict taliena is an unknown quantity at this point taliena's Avatar
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    Re: Second hand certification police

    In my country there is no law for diving, so an instructor can only advise not to do that dive, but can not punish because of no law. Everybody can dive as he wants at any depth in any circumstances. Everybody can start teaching and begin his own agency for diving.
    Even for CCR diving you can start teaching if you want. But for ccr you have the resa and if you get a cert from an organisation that is not in the resa-group, then manufacturers can say, sorry we don't service your rebreather or you don't get spares. But with selling it to another diver, there is no need to ask for a cert.

  8. #8
    Supporting Member darushin is an unknown quantity at this point darushin's Avatar
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    Re: Second hand certification police

    If i sold my Prism 2, I would have to do the whole "certified or go to instructor" type of thing. I would have to do this not because it makes me sleep better, but because when I took possession of the unit Hollis had a me sign an agreement that included the clause I would only transfer to certified divers or to instructors if I sold the unit. Now would Hollis ever try to enforce this policy? My guess is it would all depend how big a lawsuit they are facing and if whether or not using that clause can save their butt.

    Daru

  9. #9
    All IMVHO obviously... Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field has a reputation beyond repute Ben Field's Avatar
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    Re: Second hand certification police

    Quote Originally Posted by darushin  View Original Post
    ...but because when I took possession of the unit Hollis had a me sign an agreement that included the clause I would only transfer to certified divers or to instructors if I sold the unit.
    Was it legally binding and worth the paper it was written on or a hollow threat in the hope they would make more money off the 2nd owner?
    Again, it depends where you live and train but here the paperwork is totally useless- whatever you sign you might as well tear up

    FWIW When I sold my last 2nd hand unit, the chap buying it admitted he had already decided he didn't want it (after he paid, while loading it into his car) and was going to "give it to my mate" to my knowledge it was never dived again which is a shame- I wish I'd taken it back on the spot but hindsight and all that...

  10. #10
    Prism 'prentice Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike is a splendid one to behold Mike's Avatar
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    Re: Second hand certification police

    Quote Originally Posted by darushin  View Original Post
    If i sold my Prism 2,
    because when I took possession of the unit Hollis had a me sign an agreement that included the clause I would only transfer to certified divers or to instructors if I sold the unit. Now would Hollis ever try to enforce this policy? My guess is it would all depend how big a lawsuit they are facing and if whether or not using that clause can save their butt.

    Daru
    Now you remind me, I signed some of those things when I bought my first Prism as well. Luckily everyone now considers a Prism 1 to be just a pile of bits rather than a functioning rebreather
    Do any vendors refuse to supply parts to un certified divers?

    (My in house lawyer just laughed when I showed her those forms - at best it shows that the vendor has an intent that people should be trained. In Australia there is zero chance that they could be enforced on the diver)

    The last motorbike I sold was sold to an unlicensed rider. I was kind enough to drop it off at his place, but other than that, he gave me money, I gave him the keys.

    Mike

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