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Thread: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

  1. #61
    RBW Member dreamdive has disabled reputation dreamdive's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    "I know from personal experiance that incidents that would have induced stress and panic were reduced to a mear anoyance because of the gas potential of my CCR

    For every death on CCR I wonder how many incidents have averted a fatel outcome because of the safety otions it offers.

    Sadly no list for that"

    +1!!

  2. #62
    RBW Member Shocky is an unknown quantity at this point Shocky's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    As in aviation, it's an easy out to blame pilot error when the true cause is not really known! Just my thought!

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    Mature mouth breather silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running has a reputation beyond repute silent running's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    For every death on CCR I wonder how many incidents have averted a fatel outcome because of the safety otions it offers.

    Sadly no list for that


    ATB


    Mark

    Very much agreed.

    I believe I've cheated the reaper on 2 dives that started out perfectly routine but then wound up in hellacious currents and I certainly would have run out of gas on OC. The CCR kept me calm and able to make good decisions that got me out of the current, in one case by making an enormous effort against a broad down current, and the other by just waiting out a violent up/down current I was caught in. Both required going through a lot of gas I would not have had on an OC 80.

    The real question to my mind is: Should it be harder to get a CCR certification in the first place? More like a cave certification. Methinks that might sort out the highly motivated from the rest... -Andy
    Last edited by silent running; 14th May 2014 at 21:18.

  4. #64
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    Quote Originally Posted by Shocky  View Original Post
    As in aviation, it's an easy out to blame pilot error when the true cause is not really known! Just my thought!


    That's a very fair point well made

    I know recently a helicopter crash incident (the oil rig men) was reviewed and altered from Pilot error to engine failure

    I would offer as some defence to my position that aircraft systems are far more complex than CCR

    However, my main concern is that in the incidents where I have been able to get some feed back or inside knowledge, they have all been the result of the diver doing something daft and sadly fatal and most were basic diving errors rather than complex CCR issues.

    ATB

    Mark

  5. #65
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    Quote Originally Posted by silent running  View Original Post
    Very much agreed.

    I believe I've cheated the reaper on 2 dives that started out perfectly routine but then wound up in hellacious currents and I certainly would have run out of gas on OC. The CCR kept me calm and able to make good decisions that got me out of the current, in one case by making an enormous effort against a broad down current, and the other by just waiting out a violent up/down current I was caught in. Both required going through a lot of gas I would not have had on an OC 80.

    The real question to my mind is: Should it be harder to get a CCR certification in the first place? More like a cave certification. Methinks that might sort out the highly motivated from the rest... -Andy

    You probably know my stance on this already. I'd like to see 100 hours on MCCR before your allowed to switch the ECCR function on.

    Sadly however after a few years now back on ECCR i know my attention span is dropping off badly and I am back to being too relient on my HUD

    I am seriously considering a switch back to full MCCR for the sake of my health.


    ATB


    Mark

  6. #66
    RBW Member Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    I must be stupid then
    i assume that's a rhetorical question ? :)

    Personally I think its stupid but inevitable that people will deny the obvious that as mentioned "the survivability of a human error when using a bit of kit has to be a function of the design of the bit of kit". As it is that people always think fault tolerance always necessitates complexity

    So long as there is no significant change in inherent Rebreather user error survivability I doubt death rates will change significantly because you can't change human tendency for complacency and error beyond a point through training no matter how good . And no I don't agree I would have been more at risk on Oc at all. I wouldn't have gone into the wreck in first place solo at that depth.
    The argument is not about surviveabuility. The argument is, did the diver do his job properly or did the macheen kill the diver in a way no one could manage within the normal peramiters of CCR diver training.

    Many attempts have been made to build idiot proof CCR and the end result has been multiple deaths on said unit due (IMHO) to complacancy


    I still strugle to accept that there is no safety advantage in removing all the toys and so called safety features from CCR but even if i accept the statistics the end result is a ECCR with all the toys bolted on has proven to be no safer than a PP02 display only MCCR designed & built in 1998

    You yourself would have died getting lost inside a silted out shipwreck had you not been on CCR. I know from personal experiance that incidents that would have induced stress and panic were reduced to a mear anoyance because of the gas potential of my CCR

    For every death on CCR I wonder how many incidents have averted a fatel outcome because of the safety otions it offers.

    Sadly no list for that


    ATB


    Mark
    Last edited by Drmike; 15th May 2014 at 11:45.

  7. #67
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    Yes the "dont do the dive at all" argument definitly offeres the safest option

    But for those of us who do dive, getting into trouble and having virtualy unlimited gas to get out of trouble with offers a significant advantage over OC.

    For me personaly with the diving I do, the gas saferty margins on OC are very very small QED I feel the CCR advantage outweighs the risk

    I also dive higher He contents and do gradual transfer deco profiles which again helps mitigate risk

    When assesing the risks of CCR I feel we need to look at the big picture.


    ATB

    Mark

  8. #68
    New Member Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    Just a quick update on the post I made on this thread here:

    http://www.rebreatherworld.com/showthread.php?p=452562

    A short time later we ran a study over two consecutive expeditions to Bikini Atoll in which we evaluated end tidal CO2 at the end of decompressions using rebreathers. I cannot put the actual data on line at this time because although the paper has been accepted into Aviation Space and Environmental Medicine, it has not actually been published yet. However, the findings were confluent with the expectations I articulated in that post, and I will provide more detail once the paper is published. If you wish to keep an eye open for it on pubmed, the reference is:

    MITCHELL SJ, MESLEY P, HANNAM JA. An observational field study of end tidal CO2 in recreational rebreather divers on surfacing after decompression dives. Avait Space Environ Med 2014: In press.

    Simon M

  9. #69
    RBW Member uwxplorer is on a distinguished road uwxplorer is on a distinguished road uwxplorer's Avatar
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    Re: Divermag article on rebreather fatalities

    The thread link doesn't lead to anything related to that topic...
    Edit: My bad, this is just an odd Tapatalk bug. Desktop browser gets it right.
    Last edited by uwxplorer; 7th November 2014 at 17:34.

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