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Thread: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

  1. #51
    RBW Member PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG's Avatar
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    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Field  View Original Post
    I used mine for 40minutes then I left the mouthpiece open all for 3days by accident- is it okay to use in 23days time for 1hr and 16minutes.

    Exact answers only please, thankyou.






    For me, yes use it. For you....

    Peter

  2. #52
    So Cal Tech Diver aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie has a reputation beyond repute aainslie's Avatar
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    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterVICEG  View Original Post
    For me, yes use it. For you....

    Peter
    Peter, that's an inappropriate and sarcastic post. Mods, I insist you take action immediately!!!!!!!!!!!
    Andrew Ainslie

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  3. #53
    When In Doubt - Bail Out Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E's Avatar
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    Talking Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Field  View Original Post
    I used mine for 40minutes then I left the mouthpiece open all for 3days by accident- is it okay to use in 23days time for 1hr and 16minutes.

    Exact answers only please, thankyou.






    Well, given the fact that left out exactly how many gram of the white thing you put into your re-breather it is extremely hard to give you an exact answer. But, 40 minutes with an average metabolism of 1.24 lpm of oxygen, will give you 50.22 litres of co2 load (301 second pre-breathe included).
    Now, given the fact that the ambient co2 is 398.02ppm in february 2014 (source: CO2 Now | Current CO2), I would say that if you have stored it at sea level (and not at altitude, since this will invalidate the calculation due to lower co2 ppm), you should be able to use this scrubber for exactly 74.26 minutes at 29.4 meters, with a sea temperature of 18.2 degrees celcius.

    So, to give you the short version, No, you cannot use it for 1 h and 16 minutes. Only 1h and 14.26 minutes. And since your dive plan is 1h and 16 minutes you can't use the scrubber for that dive plan. So, by the rule Plan the dive, dive the plan, you need a fresh scrubber from a non exposed keg.

    Please not that if any of the figures are off the given ones, it will make the whole calculation invalid. Also, if you dive in a less evolved country that uses any other measurement, like faijrenhajt or fewt, you need to convert the figures by yourself. I have no knowledge how to do that, and YES, I have tried to google it.

    On a lighter note... I saw that the general co2 in ambient air has increased during the last years. So I wonder what would happen if all rebreather divers just let their kegs be stored without a cap... Would that lower the overall co2 ppm in ambient air?
    Last edited by Jeppe_E; 10th March 2014 at 18:36.

  4. #54
    RBW Member PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG is a glorious beacon of light PeterVICEG's Avatar
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    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Quote Originally Posted by aainslie  View Original Post
    Peter, that's an inappropriate and sarcastic post. Mods, I insist you take action immediately!!!!!!!!!!!
    Andrew, I fear that you mistake my dull wit for your stock in trade, sad sarcasm. As I seek only the approbation of my peers, I am confident that my sage advice was received by the peculiar Britt in the spirit in which it was given.

    Years from now Ben will be carefully husbanding his sorb holdings thinking fond thoughts of the well found advice from always polite, if somewhat apologetic, Canadian, forgetting the acerbic taunts of the partially Americanized South African professor.

    Or not.

    Cheers,

    Peter

  5. #55
    RBW Member caver99 is a jewel in the rough caver99 is a jewel in the rough caver99 is a jewel in the rough caver99 is a jewel in the rough caver99 is a jewel in the rough caver99 is a jewel in the rough caver99 is a jewel in the rough caver99 is a jewel in the rough caver99's Avatar
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    eStroke

    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Hi Guys,

    quite interesting thread with good arguments...

    I was just thinking about the following
    Of course only valid at room temperature, dry air and NO green micro beasts around

    The known scrubber reaction is the following

    CO2 + H2O <> H2CO3
    H2CO3 + 2 NaOH <> Na2 CO3 + H2O
    Na2CO3 + Ca (OH)2 <> CaCO3 + 2 Na OH

    So...under the line...

    Ca(OH)2 + CO2 <> CaCO3 + H2O

    So..as we know CO2 will be absorbed from the Soda, nothing new..
    The normal content of CO2 in our beloved atmosphere is 0.040 vol% ( based to NOAA result of 2013 ....interesting during studying "some years ago" it was officially always 0.03 ....hmmmmm)

    So there is some CO2 around an open scrubber, without doubt

    Lets assume average scrubber material can absorb 15 liter of CO2 gas per 100 gramm of scrubber ..(some can do more..)
    So around 300 Liter of pure CO2 per 2 KG ...
    So the 2 Kg scrubber can filter 750.000 liter of air...

    Even if the "natural" CO2 in our atmosphere will increase to 0.05 in the next years...still a number of liters which can be filter....hmmmmmm

    But now the tricky math ...what is the realistic possibility of normal air to go through the scrubber (unless you put it in front of a ventilator or turbine), assuming the scrubber is just lying around on your sideboard or so, not covered...(only with a mesh or nylon to keep green beasts out ..they are dangerous......

    As there are always some mosquito, flys and what ever flying around our garage...we have some ventilation (based on the butterfly effect..lets call it mosquito effect)

    Now in worst case two mosquitos are sitting on the scrubber all their life..and ventilate and ventilate...So as it is a round number we assume they pump 1 liter of air through the scrubber per hour.
    Hmm.... 750.000/24/365....makes it around 85 years....and the scrubber is fully saturated with CO2 .....then you definitely can not use it anymore,,,

    Sounds like it can be stored a while, or?

    The next question is how is the lifetime of our mosquitos...hmmmm??? Can they ventilate enough ..without eating a bit of our blood..

    What does it say us????

    Always use a fresh new scrubber.....

    Cheers
    M

  6. #56
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    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Interesting. My maths runs thus:

    0.03% FCO2 (maths is easier)
    3.0% FECO2 (see!?)

    ie atmospheric air contains 1/100th of exhaled air.

    My scrubber is rated for 3 hours with me breathing into it.

    So I reckon 300 hours exposed to atmosphere, or about 12 days.

    That'd be my limit exposed to air, bag it with the same limit and I feel happy.

  7. #57
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    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Quote Originally Posted by caver99  View Original Post

    So...under the line...

    Ca(OH)2 + CO2 <> CaCO3 + H2O

    Hmm.... 750.000/24/365....makes it around 85 years....and the scrubber is fully saturated with CO2 .....then you definitely can not use it anymore,,,
    Just one question here, how much water is produced by the scrubber reaction during these 85 years, and how much of it will vaporize into the atmosphere?

    Or, could it be that the mosquitoes drink the water and if so, do they pee in the scrubber?

  8. #58
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    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Starfish  View Original Post
    So I reckon 300 hours exposed to atmosphere, or about 12 days.

    That'd be my limit exposed to air, bag it with the same limit and I feel happy.
    Before you bin all that.. send it to me please

  9. #59
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    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    I have no chemistry training beyond High School but I have never heard a single compelling argument for throwing out unused sorb, or even partially used sorb between dives. The chemicals are inactive when not exposed to CO2 and even the minuscule amounts found in our atmosphere (Al Gore notwithstanding) has minimal affect of the sorb.
    Keep is in a sealed container and use it whenever you want for whatever time is remaining on it. Mark the used time well so there is no mistake that will lead to overuse and ......
    DO NOT REMOVE THEN REPLACE PARTIALLY USED SORB IN A SCRUBBER!!!!

    Once the sorb has had any use it must remain in the scrubber to prevent redistribution of the partially used material.
    FWIW, I had a CO2 hit once from a partially used scrubber, that was sealed in the RB. The thing that caused it was accidentally leaving it in the hot car in SoCal in the summer. Diving grade sorb has a much higher moisture content which you need because the reaction happens in solution on the surface of the granules. There was plenty of chemical there to adsorb the CO2, but the moisture had evaporated, and not re-absorbed in the heat of the car. That left a scrubber that was fine until I had to kick hard against a current.

    I'm sure it's fine to store scrubber in an RB, as long as you keep it in the same regime as you would in the keg. however, in my limited experience the RBs seem to get moved around a lot more. YMMV.

    -James

  10. #60
    RBW Member tkfx2000 is an unknown quantity at this point tkfx2000's Avatar
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    Re: Canceled dive, what to do with untouch sorb?

    It is never about the sorb. It is about the $.
    The harsh truth is that the cost of diving a rebreather seems to be a taboo subject. There is always some idiot who is going to say something to the effect of "if you can't afford it....."
    Part of the problem is that the industry, from a pure economic standpoint, has very little interest in answering questions on shelf life of unused sorb. Who would pay to fund such a study?
    From a chemical standpoint, If the sorb was sealed in an air tight environment it will have the same storage properties as the container it ships in. So if you stored it within the environmental spec it should remain good. If it was stored open to the environment, using it is probably not worth the risk.

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