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Thread: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

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    Dive addict taliena is an unknown quantity at this point taliena's Avatar
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    What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    I am already oc full cave from TDI and technical cave from IANTD.
    I know there is a ccr cave course. I can do it from IANTD in just 2 dives because I am already full cave diver. What will you learn in that 2 dives?
    Is it worth to spend money on it?
    Gas/bailoutplanning is not too difficult, there no course is needed for if you know, depth, deco, swimmingspeed, etc. The rules for cavediving are not changed if you dive oc or cc. If I go diving, I take my rb most of the times of course. My friends say it is a waste of money, you will learn nothing. My opinion is same at the moment.
    So can anybody tell me why I should consider of spending money for just 2 dives to get a ccr cave card? And what have you learned in that 2 dives what you didn't knew already?

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    CCR Newb CaveDive1 has a little shameless behaviour in the past CaveDive1's Avatar
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    Re: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    You know, I've asked the question several times to several different instructors. Being a cave and technical instructor myself, I never want to be doing anything that looks like it's out of my scope of education.

    I was an OC Cave Diver for nearly 20 years. I switched to CCR. I've asked several IANTD CCR instructors if I was required to take a CCR Cave class in order to dive caves with my unit. The simple answer is "NO". As it was explained to me, a CCR cave course is to teach the non-cave diver (who dives CCR) how to cave dive. While it probably could serve the function of some sort of crossover from OC Cave to CCR Cave diving, it was not intended for that purpose.

    I'd guess that it would teach bailout plans, swim speed, sac rates, and the effects of swimming in a high flow cave, but that's just assumptions. Also, I was taught all of that in my CCR course.

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    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    Id say there were a few minor considerations that a thinking diver should be able to sort out for them selves but basicly its just a cert to say your qualified in terms of hireing kit and getting insurance. The two dive cross over sounds good to me.

    I am the other way arround in that I am CCR cave with no OC cert.


    I woudn't bother with a OC course unless I had to, but on the other hand if they were doing a cert in two dives(I am asuming one day) then id do it just to avoid hassel.

    ATB

    Mark

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    What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    Not much in my opinion. You already know the rules of cave diving and should know your unit well enough to operated it in the dark or silt out if needed. Now Tom Mount was my CCR instructor and after I completed the rebreather training he knew I would be using it in the caves where I normally dive. So when he came to N. Florida to teach a cave class he ask if I wanted to set in which I did. The only thing the CCR Cave card is good for at this time is it lets me dive Ginnie Springs which is privately own and they require it. May be for there insurance but none of the State Parks or public springs require it at this time.



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    Cognitive surrender TopLeft is an unknown quantity at this point TopLeft's Avatar
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    Re: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    Watching this thread as it describes my situation. Certified cave before I went to CC. Want to do the cross over this spring/ summer.

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    Re: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    I'm gonna have to disagree a lil bit, i think there's a lot even a certified oc diver needs to know about ccr cave even if he's already certified cave diver a few examples are.

    1. penetration limitation, expansion to jumps getting back to home point off of jumps within a limiting bailout for incidence.

    2. Emergency skills, sharing bas, bailout switches, ccr failures within the cave

    3. equipment configuration, and most of all the demonstration of sharp skills on the ccr buoyancy and trim control as well as absolute awareness of the crr.

    in general i think 2 dives are not a general rule of thumb or could be enough, of course there are some divers that are smart enough to figure out there own limitation which is always a great skill for every new diver. but if we are setting stone imho i think 2 dives are not always enough and is generally an underestimation of that kind of a cross over.

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    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohamed Mousa  View Original Post
    I'm gonna have to disagree a lil bit, i think there's a lot even a certified oc diver needs to know about ccr cave even if he's already certified cave diver a few examples are.

    1. penetration limitation, expansion to jumps getting back to home point off of jumps within a limiting bailout for incidence.

    Strugling to see a diferance between gas planning OC and gas planning CCR with OC bailout?

    If the CCR is working the only limitation is the OC bailout options.


    2. Emergency skills, sharing bas, bailout switches, ccr failures within the cave
    Either you can stay on loop on your own unit or you bailout and go home on OC? Whats the problem?

    Only diferance i make for CCR is running 2m hoses on my6 bailout so I can hand off gas on my primary bailout which is hard lined to my BOV. All other tanks id just hand off as normal.


    3. equipment configuration, and most of all the demonstration of sharp skills on the ccr buoyancy and trim control as well as absolute awareness of the crr.

    in general i think 2 dives are not a general rule of thumb or could be enough, of course there are some divers that are smart enough to figure out there own limitation which is always a great skill for every new diver. but if we are setting stone imho i think 2 dives are not always enough and is generally an underestimation of that kind of a cross over.
    I changed nothing on my CCR rig from my OW diving rig except putting a 2m hose on primary bailout so I am strugling to see and issues here?

    CCR Skills wise they were exactly the same skills i lernt for OW diving?

    When I did full cave CCR what I lernt was navigation in a cave, line skills and dive planning for a cave environment.

    If I were to switch to OC tomorow I cant think of anything id feel stopping me planning and exicuting a safe cave dive.

    ATB

    Mark

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    Re: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    i wasn't trying to make an argument here and break down words and interpret them as you may like. rather point out some considerations that a diver should learn from a standards for a crossover standpoint saying two dives is a bare minimum. however i still think what you said isn't enough well you can write a paper with 10 things to do and give it to the dive and wish for the best that might work too. but there are still a few things a student ccr diver should learn and here's a further interpretation of what i said.

    1. penetration limitation, expansion to jumps getting back to home point off of jumps within a limiting bailout for incidence.

    thanks for repeating what i said i didn't get your point about this but like it or not ccr gives the diver further time inside a cave and for some environments like mexico you can do a three hour dive staying within the limits of a 1 12 L bailout cylinder just doing jumps back and forth to a home point for incidence.

    Another consideration is switching from ccr to oc and exiting a cave and although thats a skill any ccr diver should well know how to do, would deffinetly differ in cave in the execution and also in divers rmv in the cave than in open water so an instructor should highlight that also in the crossover.

    2. Emergency skills, sharing bas, bailout switches, ccr failures within the cave

    how about sharing gas in zero viz, doesn't that need a little practice in the crossover too, switching bailout bottles and proper gas procedures, revising options you can exit a cave with a failed ccr on the ccr for incidence in case of loosing dil. oc isn't always the only option rather the last one, and thats another debate.

    3. equipment configuration, and most of all the demonstration of sharp skills on the ccr buoyancy and trim control as well as absolute awareness of the crr.

    Adding at least 3 lights,cookies & arrows reels and spools doesn't change anything in your oc rig really...?

    you definitely won't change a thing if you are used to dive caves in ccr cuz in ccr u have alot of limitations to work with, in oc its theoretically just the rule of 1/3 or whatever the environment might opt.

    I don't think that what i'm stating is an over complication of the crossover cuz when it comes to ccr and cave you need to take all the necessary measures to have your student in total awareness of the ccr as well as the cave environment. i'm ccr cave instructor and i'm talking from a teaching standpoint these are some of the things we actually teach in a ccr crossover. Being a good ow ccr and an oc cave diver don't necessarily result in having all the knowledge and skills needed therefore a thorough cross over is a ust and should be flexible to accommodate diver's knowledge and skills.

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    Dive addict taliena is an unknown quantity at this point taliena's Avatar
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    Re: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    Thanks for the answers. You need just 2 dives to switch from oc cave to ccr cave. If an instructor ask a normal price for that 1 day, then I will think about doing it, but I am not wasting money on things anymore. What I hear here is nothing that is new. Gasplan bailout is not a problem, zero viz and touchsignals is same, handling the ccr and hold bouyancy is what you need in wrecks and so too. Lines, markers, plans, that is same as oc.

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    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: What do you learn in a ccr cave course if you are already oc cave diver?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohamed Mousa  View Original Post
    i wasn't trying to make an argument here and break down words and interpret them as you may like. rather point out some considerations that a diver should learn from a standards for a crossover standpoint saying two dives is a bare minimum. however i still think what you said isn't enough well you can write a paper with 10 things to do and give it to the dive and wish for the best that might work too. but there are still a few things a student ccr diver should learn and here's a further interpretation of what i said.

    1. penetration limitation, expansion to jumps getting back to home point off of jumps within a limiting bailout for incidence.

    thanks for repeating what i said i didn't get your point about this but like it or not ccr gives the diver further time inside a cave and for some environments like mexico you can do a three hour dive staying within the limits of a 1 12 L bailout cylinder just doing jumps back and forth to a home point for incidence.

    Another consideration is switching from ccr to oc and exiting a cave and although thats a skill any ccr diver should well know how to do, would deffinetly differ in cave in the execution and also in divers rmv in the cave than in open water so an instructor should highlight that also in the crossover.

    2. Emergency skills, sharing bas, bailout switches, ccr failures within the cave

    how about sharing gas in zero viz, doesn't that need a little practice in the crossover too, switching bailout bottles and proper gas procedures, revising options you can exit a cave with a failed ccr on the ccr for incidence in case of loosing dil. oc isn't always the only option rather the last one, and thats another debate.

    3. equipment configuration, and most of all the demonstration of sharp skills on the ccr buoyancy and trim control as well as absolute awareness of the crr.

    Adding at least 3 lights,cookies & arrows reels and spools doesn't change anything in your oc rig really...?

    you definitely won't change a thing if you are used to dive caves in ccr cuz in ccr u have alot of limitations to work with, in oc its theoretically just the rule of 1/3 or whatever the environment might opt.

    I don't think that what i'm stating is an over complication of the crossover cuz when it comes to ccr and cave you need to take all the necessary measures to have your student in total awareness of the ccr as well as the cave environment. i'm ccr cave instructor and i'm talking from a teaching standpoint these are some of the things we actually teach in a ccr crossover. Being a good ow ccr and an oc cave diver don't necessarily result in having all the knowledge and skills needed therefore a thorough cross over is a ust and should be flexible to accommodate diver's knowledge and skills.

    Are you sugesting that an OC twinset diver dosent carry line markers, spools primary reels and three light sorces?


    From your responce it sounds like you didnt read his initial post properly as he is already trained in all of thease aspects of diving as qualified OC cave diver

    The question is, what does switching from a Cave rigged twin set to a Cave rigged CCR alter and id sugest as a CCR qualified cave diver having experianced the training that it changes nothing much of importance except as i repeat, the use of a 2m hose on primary bailout

    I learnt a massive amount on my CCR cave course but it was all about the cave its self, how to navoigate & how manage it. In terms of the equipment I was wearing, there was nothing new as all the CCR skills remained the same as for my trimix OC OHE trainig.

    As I said id feel 100% confident doing a safe cave dive on an OC rig without further training. Persoanly I think any one doing caves on OC is quite mad but thats another issue.


    Again I stress if thers a two dive cross over then do it to avoid dive police messing with you, but no way would I do the whole six day course to switch to CCR cave.

    ATB

    Mark

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