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Thread: So Is the Evoltuion going to mean the Demise of the Inspiration?

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    So Is the Evolution going to mean the Demise of the Inspiration?

    What do you guys think?

    Will everyone move over to the lighter and dare I say it nicer looking Evo? Leaving to Inspiration to go the way of the dodo?

    The way I say it the plus points of the Inspiration are a slighter bigger scrubber and a longer run time...

    I dont think Cylinders will make too much difference...

    And if people are going to go deeper than the Evo would allow rather than using an Inspiration I wonder if they will go straight for an expedition level RB liked the Ouborus (sp?) or Meg?

    Stuart

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    Stefan Besier caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7's Avatar
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    PRISM Topaz & Sport KISS

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    Quote Originally Posted by schford
    What do you guys think?

    Will everyone move over to the lighter and dare I say it nicer looking Evo?
    Leaving to Inspiration to go the way of the dodo?

    The way I say it the plus point of the Inspiration is a slighter bigger scrubber and a longer run time...
    That will depend on how well the Evo will be received. Plenty of people think the price is too high for a 2hr. rebreather. APD firmly believes in the scrubber gauge, and during recent Evo training in Mexico 2 units were used for 4-5 hrs. If this becomes the status quo for the Evo, it should be quite successfull.
    When the Inspiration will get the same electronics, it will still be way ahead and suit many CCR divers better, as it is bound to be the rig better suited for depths past recreational (we have to wait and see how the Evo scrubber fairs on 75m +
    dives).

    I dont think Cylinders will make too much difference...
    Only for travelling if you take them along. The 3 ltr. cylinders might suffice for no deco dives to 25, as bailout, but those are profiles better suited for the Evo.
    So either way you'll need additional bailout. For deep diving the 2 ltr cylinders are too small I believe. Do a loop flush at 80m+ and they'll be depleted fast.


    And if people are going to go deeper than the Evo would allow rather than using an Inspiration I wonder if they will go straight for an expedition level RB liked the Ouborus (sp?) or Meg?
    From what I've seen of the Ouroboros it looks like an extremly well build CCR. But the 2 1/2 hour scrubber rating is not exactly expedition duration.
    I expected more from the design, it places the Ouroboros in the same duration range as the Evo and SportKiss.

    The Meg is great in that you can configure it as needed with several choices of cylinders, scrubber sizes & types. It'll cost quite a bit, but less than an Ouroboros.

    I also think the success of other CCRs will have an influence on APD's decision to offer both RBs in the future.

    When Steam Machines gets production up to a good level and persues CE certification, it will be a great and less expensive alternative.

    Same for the Meg, with the added advantage of size variability.

    If you consider the success of the non certified Classic KISS in Europe, a tighty little CEd SportKiss should find plenty of takers.

    And finally new rebreathers that should find their way to the market like the DiveRite Optima could end up being quite successfull.

    All of those are going to cut into a market that APD has dominated like no one before, so they may well decide to streamline production to a single model.

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    long live the inspo

    given that the new inspo is the same price as the evo it a size choice

    and as soon as the evo is up and running in production APD can get back onto the options :)
    ie 4 hr scrubber

    and of course getting the price down which will happen as they become more popular and more CCRs become avaliable and they don't have a hold



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    RBW Founder schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caveseeker7
    But the 2 1/2 hour scrubber rating is not exactly expedition duration.
    I confess to assuming that with it being a donut Radial design it was far in excess of that - damn why spend so much!!

    Stuart

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    Classic Kiss

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    I find all this fascinating and will enjoy watching how it pans out :)

    For me, my whole rebreather exists to support the scrubber, which supports me. So going to a smaller/less effective scrubber is not something I want.

    Still, everyone wants something different from their breathers...... I just hope they dont start pushing Alpinism/small scrubber/deep dives....

  6. #6
    Stefan Besier caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schford
    I confess to assuming that with it being a donut Radial design it was far in excess of that - damn why spend so much!!
    So did I, but then again CE rating and real world diving can be quite different.
    Ambient pressure, temperature, dwell time, RMV and CO2 produced all play into it, as well as the amount of sorb used. If you look at the pictures by Ron and myself, there are at least two scrubber sizes. The larger could (and should) last considerably longer.

    Very complicated issue, scrubber design and duration. Look at the Inspiration and Evolution. Same basic design, the latter has just about 1/2 kg less capacity yet the rating is only 2/3 of the larger unit. Yet during training/certification dives in Mexico's warm waters the 'scrubber gauges' were used to fly between 4 and 5 hours.

    Problem is without a scrubber indicator you won't know and without CO2 monitor you can't be sure, so you're on your own without additional testing data.

    But there is a lot to like about the Ouroboros. Very advanced electronics, solid build, no external gas hoses, solenoid and battery outside the loop, good integration of primary, secondary and tertiary displays plus the most informative HUD on the market right now. Ability to add another sensor for O2-integrated deco backup and plug in off-board gasses. Easy access and (dis-)assembly of components.
    Kevin put a lot of thought into this rig.

    Scrubber duration, while a major factor, is but one of them.
    If the scrubber gets to big, and WOB to high, it wouldn't do any good.
    CO2 would build up inside the diver rather than the loop. And it is there were it causes the problems.

    WW, I see the rebrather to support my life. Hence life support equipment.
    I needs to deliver gas that will sustain my well being. The scrubber has the major part of removing CO2 from the breathing gas. The electronics, gas addition valves and sensors need to mix that gas reliably. The loop must keep it easily available.

  7. #7
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    caveseeker7 another QUALITY reply...

    I confess to worrying about the scrubber life indicator, nice feature though it is. What I would really like to see is a Co2 monitor in the loop.

    there was a lot of great discussion on the rebreather list about this but unfortunatly it was before I had setup the gateway so we don't have a copy in the forums.

    hopefully it will come up again..

    Although I shall go and cut and paste the appropriate emails for now.

    Stuart

  8. #8
    Stefan Besier caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7 has a reputation beyond repute caveseeker7's Avatar
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    Thanks Stuart.
    Quote Originally Posted by schford
    I confess to worrying about the scrubber life indicator, nice feature though it is. What I would really like to see is a Co2 monitor in the loop.
    As I said before, the scrubber gauge is an idicator of the process, not the result.

    It monitors the temperature within the cannister and registers the heat front moving along the scrubber bed. But it cannot account for channeling, for bypassing.

    It does not measure the CO2 content of the resulting gas on the inhalation side.
    Only a CO2 sensor can do that. They are available, but at a price not suited for the recreational market.

    Even then the problem of hypercapnia isn't solved. If it can occur on open circuit systems the scrubbing process in the rebreather is obviously not the only factor.
    CO2 is produced and must be expelled from the body, into the loop when on a RB so the scrubber can do it's job. If the diver breathes shallow and fast CO2 levels inside the body will rise (to possibly debilitating and fatal levels) no matter how capable the scrubber.

    And neither current systems will catch faulty check valves in the DSV which lead to rebreathing the just exhaled gas, or part of it.

    As I haven't seen any manned or unmanned test results from either system I asume that a combination of both would be ideal as the 'scrubber gauge' should show problems earlier than the CO2 gauge. I just don't know how much reaction between a CO2 monitor's alarm and the bodies response to raised CO2 levels is.

    In regards to APD implementation I think it can be a usefull tool as long as the diver is aware of the limits and doesn't become complacent.

  9. #9
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    JJ Hybrid

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    Personally I will be getting the EVO to replace my inspiration. This is because its A: a better design and B: because its much lighter to travel with. THIS is the inspiration major down fall. The scrubber duration issue makes me smile as I truly wonder how many divers out there are really doing dives that would push the scrubber.

    I dive trimix depth most of the time and so in day to day diving do only one dive. A 120min run time is quite a big dive for me. So pushing the scrubber for say 30mins and doing a 150min run time would cover two or maybe three dives I do in a year.

    Its cold and depth that puts the pressure on the scrubber so if I was doing a two dive day with say a 30 and a 25m dive I doubt if I would be too bothered doing two 90min run times as I know the scrubber hasn't been worked hard at depth.
    That said how many divers would do two 90min dives?

    The EVO will appeal to divers who travel a lot (like me) but the EVO electronics package will be the demise of the Inspiration Classic. The Vision system isnít that much more than the Classic so why buy a classic? I will probably sell my Inspiration control head and buy an Evo. and a can for the inspiration. Then I will have an Evo for most diving and an Inspiration Vision for the occasional V deep dive.

    My main concern over the new EVO is the small Diluent cylinder size. Poor buoyancy control in the early days of using the unit meant I used up a shed load of diluent running the wing / suit. Combine that with a couple of dill flushes and I can see a few cases of divers running out of diluent on the early dives.

    I will be using off board wing and suit inflation when I get my one. Mind you I wonít be getting one until itís been soak tested for about a year :)

    ATB

    Mark Chase

  10. #10
    RBW Founder schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford's Avatar
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    Good post Mark - have some green....

    I think your right and that classic inspos will become a thing of the past...I wonde rhow long that will take, whether AP will just wait until they have run out of parts and then....New electonics only?

    Stuart

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