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Thread: Mk VI fatality-Canada

  1. #31
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBrown  View Original Post
    Trained tech divers (you know - the right sort of people for RBW members)have died on tech CCR's by not turning on their gas, ignoring alarms, diving them broken and diving them knowingly unfit.

    Whats the difference?
    The difference is realistic expectations vs unrealistic marketing and numerous parrots whose knowledge and training only extends their capabilities to restating unrealistic marketing claims.

  2. #32
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by DwayneJ  View Original Post
    The difference is realistic expectations vs unrealistic marketing and numerous parrots whose knowledge and training only extends their capabilities to restating unrealistic marketing claims.

    So, what you are saying, is that a technically trained, experienced diver makes a judgement call to dive his/hers unit with a realistic expectation that he/she might die? So, the mindset of a diver that actively choose to dive a faulty unit under the assumption that he/she can handle it is different to a certified MkVI diver who assume that the unit will keep him/her alive, since the broschure says so?

    Alright...

  3. #33
    RBW Member Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike's Avatar
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBrown  View Original Post
    Its really easy to knock another unit. However I think you should either:

    a) have owned one
    b) have trained on one
    c) at least have done a try dive

    before you can make the kind of assumptions about a unit, its credibility, its design and build, its safety record, its training programme and the people who own them before you make the kind of comments we have seen here and in other threads.

    Otherwise, it cant really be informed, unbiased and from a stand point of experience can it?
    i think the above helps with informed discussion but there is real and great value in any form of discussion over safety issues. there are always plenty of informed people willing to quickly correct any untruths. I think discussion needs to be encouraged and putting limits on who is 'qualified' to discuss is not good for Rebreather safety.

    Lets say I look at an RB design and note that it is easily possible for the user to re assemble the scrubber incorrectly and thus enable a co2 bypass. I dont need to have been trained or to have used the unit to recognise this aspect of the design to have a low inherent safety level.

    (general comment not necessarily related to this fatality or unit)
    Last edited by Drmike; 25th July 2013 at 07:35.

  4. #34
    RBW Member Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike's Avatar
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post

    The child still needs a driver license...
    why dont we give children driving licenses?


    is it because cars are unreliable or is it because a child can not be relied upon to drive a car safely?


    can a padi recreational mass market average joe once a year on holiday diver be relied upon to dive these things safetly?


    if the answer to that is yes then why are there so many 'user fault' deaths?

  5. #35
    RBW Member Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike's Avatar
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBrown  View Original Post
    Trained tech divers (you know - the right sort of people for RBW members)have died on tech CCR's by not turning on their gas, ignoring alarms, diving them broken and diving them knowingly unfit.

    Whats the difference?
    i suspect

    experience induced complacency V 100% safe (black box mindset) complacency



    But it may be more than that. My wife is crap at changing car engines and has little awareness about how they work because she has no interest in car engines. But she drives a car. she would likely not appreciate how a spongy brake pedal could indicate upcoming brake failure and keep driving.


    when you market what still is a technical bit of kit to people who are non technical you better make sure its 100% fool proof because that type of person doesnt know what a spongy brake pedal means
    Last edited by Drmike; 25th July 2013 at 07:57.

  6. #36
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    Thumbs up Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Drmike  View Original Post
    i suspect

    experience induced complacency V 100% safe (black box mindset) complacency



    But it may be more than that. My wife is crap at changing car engines and has little awareness about how they work because she has no interest in car engines. But she drives a car. she would likely not appreciate how a spongy brake pedal could indicate upcoming brake failure and keep driving.

    Excellent point. So, shouldnt she be allowed to drive a car, since she doesnt know how to change the engine (or even a smaller part of it)? Lets just for simplicity say that the only thing she needs to know (besides the obvious; is a certified driver), is to turn of the engine if something feels strange.

  7. #37
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Drmike  View Original Post
    can a padi recreational mass market average joe once a year on holiday diver be relied upon to dive these things safetly?


    if the answer to that is yes then why are there so many 'user fault' deaths?
    Can PADI mass market average joe once a year holiday diver be relied on diving OC?

    Define 'so many' compare it to the amount of diving hours on the units in total. I have said it before and say it again, humans are stupid (me included). It is dangerous to live - you can die.

    Even with training, Recreational or technical, we make decisions on how to act. We might even be aware of a problem, but decide to dive anyway, thinking we can handle it. We decide to drive our cars at 250 km/h, even though we know it is dangerous. We put on our wingsuits and try to land in a heap of cardboard boxes...etc..etc..

  8. #38
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisBrown  View Original Post
    Trained tech divers (you know - the right sort of people for RBW members)have died on tech CCR's by not turning on their gas, ignoring alarms, diving them broken and diving them knowingly unfit.

    Whats the difference?


    This:

    The world’s most advanced rebreather interface – The MKVI contains five separate warning and advisory systems so that you get the information you need to manage your dive without the task-loading normally associated with rebreathers. The main Poseidon MKVI data interface is a large format flat screen panel that displays all you need to know about consumables management – cylinder pressures, dive time, depth, oxygen level, and it incorporates a sophisticated resource algorithm that monitors all systems for you and tells you when its time to head up. If things are not going correctly for whatever reason, the MKVI has audible, tactile, and visual warning systems to get your attention, and to advise your diving partner of your status.

  9. #39
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    [QUOTE=ChrisBrown;436673]I get your point and dont necessarily disagree. But Im talking more about general commentary that we have had around:

    - the safety of the unit
    - The sensor validation system (which some people are clearly not informed about - but gave their expert opinion anyway:)
    - The training (especially PADI - where some people have been WAY off the mark and clearly have no clue whats involved)
    - The kind of people who dive the unit (as some people have never seen a MKVI apart from perhaps at a demo day or at a dive show) how on earth can they comment on the 'kind of individual' that frequents the MKVI or indeed the state of 'recreational CCR divers' when they have never even seen one.

    Sorry, too much armchair internet observation going on on this topic for me to give it any merit.

    All my posts on unit specifics over the years on all these forums tend to be mainly focused on AP products, VR products, rEvo and a bit of ISC /Jergensen. These are the units I have experience of. I never comment to a similar extent on the Azimuth, RB80, Nautilus, Explorer etc as I have no experience of them personally. Ive heard plenty, sure. But I dont have any first hand knowledge.

    So whilst everyone is entitled to an opinion, I dont see how people can spout such strong observations and opinions when they havent even owned / trained or been diving on said unit! Maybe its just an internet thing??[/QUOTE]



    No you just have to understand the components that make up the unit, how to dive one and the issues with current reliability of automated safety systems.


    As someone else said there are plenty of units out there I wouldn't buy based solely on looking at the design of said unit.



    Then lets look at training issues.

    Training Syllabus 1:

    Cells should be changed once every 12 months. The unit should be calibrated before every dive and if there is a problem with the cells the unit will inform you. Should a cell fail during a dive the unit will advise you to bailout to open circuit and end the dive immediately.


    Training Syllabus 2:

    Cells are the weakest link in the construction of any CCR system. Cells should be replaced in rotation preferably using cells of a different production date number to avoid batch failure issues.

    New cells should be soaked in 02 for at least an hour prior to installation into the unit and first calibration as it can take a while for the cell to wake up

    Cells should be checked for millivolt output in air and 02 to ensure linearity within acceptable range

    Before calibration the unit should always be tested in air and pure 02 to ensure cells have not dropped significantly out of range as this will indicate a possible cell error or a connection error.

    You should never calibrate over a cell that falls significantly out of range without first identifying the reason why

    Cells should be checked regularly during a dive by spiking to ensure they can read over set point.


    etc etc


    Both divers have got a certificate to dive their respective units but only one of them has received proper training.


    ATB

    Mark

  10. #40
    When In Doubt - Bail Out Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E's Avatar
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    Re: Mk VI fatality-Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    This:

    The world’s most advanced rebreather interface – The MKVI contains five separate warning and advisory systems so that you get the information you need to manage your dive without the task-loading normally associated with rebreathers. The main Poseidon MKVI data interface is a large format flat screen panel that displays all you need to know about consumables management – cylinder pressures, dive time, depth, oxygen level, and it incorporates a sophisticated resource algorithm that monitors all systems for you and tells you when its time to head up. If things are not going correctly for whatever reason, the MKVI has audible, tactile, and visual warning systems to get your attention, and to advise your diving partner of your status.

    That is correct, that IS the difference between the MkVI and some other Rebreathers. However, having said that, there is nothing in there stating that you cant dive this unit as a technical diver. Quite a few divers does do technical dives with it (even though the text above is mainly aimed at recreational divers).

    So, lets take a blunt example.

    You forget to open your O2 valve

    Many rebreathers will not notify the diver, until the figures goes yellow and then red and you still need to display according to the rule - always know your pO2.

    MkVI will not pass the pre-dive, and if by any chance the valve is turned off after the pre-dive is completed, you will be getting an alarm for hypoxic gas. Both from the DIVA, audio and display alarms.

    Complacency should not be a part of diving, but it is - we get comfortable
    Last edited by Jeppe_E; 25th July 2013 at 12:29.

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