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Thread: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

  1. #21
    RBW Member whynot? will become famous soon enough whynot? will become famous soon enough whynot? will become famous soon enough whynot? will become famous soon enough whynot?'s Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by tkfx2000  View Original Post
    There is no perfect system....
    But allowing manufacturers to go unchecked is just as much a non-starter as suing them out of existence.
    In aviation, there are specific laws that cap general aviation manufacturer liability beyond a certain time frame. So they are not liable for old equipment. Some companies were sued out of the aviation business. That is how the system is supposed to work.
    Do we as rebreather consumers really know how the units are being tested? Do we have any real insight into the known problems in the system?
    I think forcing the industry to reveal more about the cause of accidents, rather than hiding details, will ultimately result in a stronger and safer product in time.
    Point taken. I fly with a group of guys (all retired) who manufacture an autopilot (AP) for experimental aircraft (Ken will know about these guys). They specifically did not get the AP TSO'd due to liability in the certified aircraft industry. Everyone who purchases the AP signs a waiver and has to install it themselves, no factory installations allowed. This puts the responsibility of the "use of the product" back on to the consumer, they make the choice to install and use or not. Of course, the phone rings all day in the shop for advice etc and the guys are more than happy to give it. They also repair or update the software whenever someone has an issue- most of the time it's not an issue with the product or code but rather user error. And that seems to be the point here, although I don't know any of the details of the Skiles incident or lawsuit.

  2. #22
    "Two Sheds" Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos has a reputation beyond repute Janos's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    I know CE can be a dirty word, and there are some absurd regulations for CE marking of rebreathers (I suspect this is because the market is/was relatively new and small).

    However I can't help but think that having a government-backed standard allows manufacturers to say: "look - my rebreather has been independently verified to meet safety standards" and that can only discourage this sort of lawsuit.

    Janos

  3. #23
    RBW Member michael-fisch is on a distinguished road michael-fisch is on a distinguished road michael-fisch's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Janos  View Original Post
    I know CE can be a dirty word, and there are some absurd regulations for CE marking of rebreathers (I suspect this is because the market is/was relatively new and small).

    However I can't help but think that having a government-backed standard allows manufacturers to say: "look - my rebreather has been independently verified to meet safety standards" and that can only discourage this sort of lawsuit.

    Janos
    Maybe the proper way is to just deliver a box of parts to every rebreather buyer, and let them assemble their own RBs. Thats the way I got my Flex, and although it makes the learning curve a bit slower, you learn better by having to solve your own problems instead of having everything presented on a platter by your instructor/RB seller.
    If you want instruction, and its available - thats great, but it should not have anything to do with being able to buy an RB.
    If I want to buy a Corvette, no dealer will ask to see my drivers license, as long as I don't want to take the Corvette for a testdrive before paying for it.

    Michael

  4. #24
    New Member Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell has a reputation beyond repute Simon Mitchell's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by tkfx2000  View Original Post
    But allowing manufacturers to go unchecked is just as much a non-starter....

    Hello again,


    Can I be clear that I completely agree on this point. I am not an apologist for shonky practice by manufacturers. However, having some insight I do not believe that is the issue in this case. As previously stated, I believe that when it can be openly discussed virtually everyone will perceive that a law-suit was not the appropriate ending to this tragedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by tkfx2000  View Original Post
    I think forcing the industry to reveal more about the cause of accidents, rather than hiding details, will ultimately result in a stronger and safer product in time.

    Completely agree here too. I don't think there are too many details hidden. There have been some very revealing presentations on accident causation by manufacturers at the various tech dive shows over the years.


    Simon M

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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by tkfx2000  View Original Post
    I think forcing the industry to reveal more about the cause of accidents, rather than hiding details, will ultimately result in a stronger and safer product in time.

    I fully agree!


    Sadly, from my personal experience, it happens more that the family or the lawer of the victim prefers to not reveal the cause of accident...
    Manufacturers still need the permission to publish results of the investigations...
    www.rEvo-rebreathers.com
    ...."Yes you have to pre-breathe to activate the scrubber sorb, anyone who says different doesn't know what they are talking about!"...
    .... to get more accurate CO2 injection in the breathing machine we put 2 mass flow controllers in series ...
    .... The noise is a few tens of nano-volts, so DL were able to reduce the output voltage ...
    .... radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
    .... the earth is flat and ...

  6. #26
    RBW Member rjack will become famous soon enough rjack will become famous soon enough rjack will become famous soon enough rjack's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraymaekers  View Original Post
    Manufacturers still need the permission to publish results of the investigations...
    Have you been asked to contribute to other investigations and then been forced to keep quiet about the results?

  7. #27
    RBW Member Capt.garry has a spectacular aura about Capt.garry has a spectacular aura about Capt.garry has a spectacular aura about Capt.garry has a spectacular aura about Capt.garry has a spectacular aura about Capt.garry has a spectacular aura about Capt.garry's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by michael-fisch  View Original Post
    If you want instruction, and its available - thats great, but it should not have anything to do with being able to buy an RB.
    If I want to buy a Corvette, no dealer will ask to see my drivers license, as long as I don't want to take the Corvette for a testdrive before paying for it.

    Michael
    So you are advocating buying a CCR and then go diving with no or little instruction?

    It seems to me that you are one that is okay with getting their CCR education/training off the internet or from your dive buddies.
    I am a believer in good diver education and training, without it you might become another statistic or simply another"internet diver".

    I understand you have been diving a long time and have loads of experience, but so did Wes Skiles!

  8. #28
    RBW Member michael-fisch is on a distinguished road michael-fisch is on a distinguished road michael-fisch's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by Capt.garry  View Original Post
    So you are advocating buying a CCR and then go diving with no or little instruction?

    It seems to me that you are one that is okay with getting their CCR education/training off the internet or from your dive buddies.
    I am a believer in good diver education and training, without it you might become another statistic or simply another"internet diver".

    I understand you have been diving a long time and have loads of experience, but so did Wes Skiles!
    A year and a half ago I got an SF2 with your help. Dove it with an experienced SF2 buddy untill I felt that I was ready for a course with the best SF2 instructer I knew, who promptly made me realize that I still had a lot to learn. Now, 200 dives later, I'm trying to teach myself how to dive a Flex as a selfcontained BOB. It's not easy, but it's slowly working better and I figure that I should be pretty good running my SF2 backmount and sidemount Flex BOBs together within the next 2-3 months.
    If I could, I would certainly spring for top flight qualified instruction on my Flex BOB, but as far as I know, it doesn't exist in the configuration I'm currenty diving it - which forces me to take the slow way of learning, 2 steps foward and one step back. But I certainly won't kill myself because my balls are bigger than my brains - I learned a long time ago that any diver can call any dive, for any reason, at any time with no hard feelings and that the best dives are the dives that you survive. So far all my dives have been best dives, but several ex- buddies haven't been so lucky including that diver with his fast route to certification that we talked about at Lake Thun back in March a year ago. Thankfully I've never had to be around whan any of these ex-buddys did their last dives.

    Good training is a good thing, but I'm not sure that you gotta have it on your 3rd, 4th or 5th CCR since the differences are so small from one RB to the next, reading the manual and spending a few (20+) hours on try dives before doing anything serious should suffice.

    Met Wes back in the late 90s, have always been very impressed by his spectacular photography, but feel that his medical conditions, medication, task loading and prior experience with the RB were, together just too much for him on that day.

    Michael

  9. #29
    Roland Somodi rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver is a glorious beacon of light rolanddiver's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    I built my own rebreathers(2) and never had reb trainig. A plastic card in your pocket will not pull you out triuble in case the shit hits the fan. These days cert are given out ( for cash in exchange) and doesn't have to be earned. I m not saying that anyone should do what i have done, but if you really think about it ask yourself the following question: " where did the reb manufacturers get their initial training?" My opinion has nothing to do with named lawsuit and to me it seems pretty straight forward as who will win at the end. However it will still cost the manufacturer arms and legs and might force them out of business. Sad


    Very respectfully

    Roland Somodi

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    Very Respectfully

    Roland Somodi

    sent from my Commodore 64 using Wizard of War....

  10. #30
    RBW Member Doomanic is an unknown quantity at this point Doomanic's Avatar
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    Re: Wes Skiles wrongful death suit

    Quote Originally Posted by rolanddiver  View Original Post
    These days cert are given out ( for cash in exchange) and doesn't have to be earned.
    I expect a great many divers and instructors will take offence at this remark.

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