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Thread: Poseidon White Paper

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    RBW Member Seldom Here is an unknown quantity at this point Seldom Here's Avatar
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    Poseidon White Paper

    Ok, nothing revelatory here, but a solid reminder that we are the weakest link in any rebreather system.

    http://origin.library.constantcontac...hite+Paper.pdf

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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Seldom Here  View Original Post
    Ok, nothing revelatory here, but a solid reminder that we are the weakest link in any rebreather system.

    http://origin.library.constantcontac...hite+Paper.pdf
    What a joke........................

    "The Poseidon MKVI is the world’s first rebreather for recreational divers. It’s a fully*closed, fully *automated unit that will make you see diving in a different light."

    So by FULLY AUTOMATED do they mean kind of sort of Automated?

    And by Recreational they seem to mean: You have to do everything you would for a technical rebreather but ours is Recreational because its less capable then the technical units.

    By incidents they mean diver fatalities?

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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by JONT3  View Original Post
    What a joke........................

    "The Poseidon MKVI is the world’s first rebreather for recreational divers. It’s a fully*closed, fully *automated unit that will make you see diving in a different light."

    So by FULLY AUTOMATED do they mean kind of sort of Automated?

    And by Recreational they seem to mean: You have to do everything you would for a technical rebreather but ours is Recreational because its less capable then the technical units.

    By incidents they mean diver fatalities?
    They " Posiden" are targeting the MONEY....thats all this is. However I have seen these units and at first wasnt sure I liked the idea, but knew a change was coming. My only concern was how it was marketed, misleading or false sense of security. Ill leave it at that!


    Not all recreational divers are idiots, we all started somewhere, but have a look at youtube and you can see some that shouldnt be allowed to dive period.
    Now thinking they will hop on a recreational CCR unit scares the sh*t out of me. Yes I know the trainings in depth, but if they can follow safe basic OW diving how the hell can they dive a RB????
    Its the bad repore CCR's get....


    One thing is for sure, there will be fatalities regardless...

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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by RSmith  View Original Post
    They " Posiden" are targeting the MONEY....thats all this is. However I have seen these units and at first wasnt sure I liked the idea, but knew a change was coming. My only concern was how it was marketed, misleading or false sense of security. Ill leave it at that!


    Not all recreational divers are idiots, we all started somewhere, but have a look at youtube and you can see some that shouldnt be allowed to dive period.
    Now thinking they will hop on a recreational CCR unit scares the sh*t out of me. Yes I know the trainings in depth, but if they can follow safe basic OW diving how the hell can they dive a Rebreather????
    Its the bad repore CCR's get....


    One thing is for sure, there will be fatalities regardless...
    I would never suggest that recreational divers are idiots and certainly didnt want to give anyone that impression, it simply goes to dive profile.

    Yup more deaths will happen and stupidity will account for most if not all fatalities on CCR or OC for that matter.

    CCR's do get a bad wrap and divers are ultimately responsible for the decisions they make but when a manufacturer misrepresents fact, minimizes the risk and misleads people that dont have the experience to make sound informed decisions...thats a problem and thats exactly whats happening here.

    The issue really isnt the rebreather they created its the line that the marketing campaign crossed.

    Up until this unit was being marketed we would all bitch and moan about what unit was better, manufacturers would argue as to why they made various design decisions, some builders have come and gone and some never made it to the table and all of that is fine, its the nature of the beast.

    The problem here is the way Poseidon is going about thing, its unethical to say the least. Unfortunately this is the slippery slope that the "recreational" rebreather creates.

    No other manufacturer building rebreathers is crossing that line or has crossed that line to date.

  5. #5
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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    A little story from my own history book.

    I got a Draeger Dolphin with tanks and computers at one hell of a good price. I then went and took the PADI training. I remember how th manual was written. Each and every page was the exact same format. 2/3 of the left side of the page were the instructions written in black, and 1/3 of the right side were the death warnings written in red. There was never any mention of possible harm or endangerment, they were ALL warning of possible DEATH. As I was training and reading through the manual. I was beginning to feel that this was just too damn complicated and dangerous for my stupid mind to deal with. Finally, I came to the realization that the solution to every problem was to simply bailout to my OC supply.

    I still managed to f**k up a few different ways by not following my training and/or experimenting. I feel fortunate to have survived a po2 of 3.7 without growing a third nipple or something. This was a recreational rebreather and was about as simple as they can be. PADI endorsed it back then. It was never taught as safe or foolproof.

    With this background, I will state my opinion that the Posideon marketing is pushing the envelope to the point of being a bit untrue and not fully truthful about the automation. There is absolutely NOTHING in diving that is fully automatic. Any human intervention allows a chance for error, even with the build and programming of the electronics.

    Recreational rebreathers are going to keep coming and the best that we can hope for is that the users will be safely and properly trained on their abilities and usage.

    Possibly there will be truth in advertising in my lifetime too, but I will not be holding my breath and waiting for it.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsix36  View Original Post
    A little story from my own history book.

    I got a Draeger Dolphin with tanks and computers at one hell of a good price. I then went and took the PADI training. I remember how th manual was written. Each and every page was the exact same format. 2/3 of the left side of the page were the instructions written in black, and 1/3 of the right side were the death warnings written in red. There was never any mention of possible harm or endangerment, they were ALL warning of possible DEATH. As I was training and reading through the manual. I was beginning to feel that this was just too damn complicated and dangerous for my stupid mind to deal with. Finally, I came to the realization that the solution to every problem was to simply bailout to my OC supply.

    I still managed to f**k up a few different ways by not following my training and/or experimenting. I feel fortunate to have survived a po2 of 3.7 without growing a third nipple or something. This was a recreational rebreather and was about as simple as they can be. PADI endorsed it back then. It was never taught as safe or foolproof.

    With this background, I will state my opinion that the Posideon marketing is pushing the envelope to the point of being a bit untrue and not fully truthful about the automation. There is absolutely NOTHING in diving that is fully automatic. Any human intervention allows a chance for error, even with the build and programming of the electronics.

    Recreational rebreathers are going to keep coming and the best that we can hope for is that the users will be safely and properly trained on their abilities and usage.

    Possibly there will be truth in advertising in my lifetime too, but I will not be holding my breath and waiting for it.
    .






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    If you want to know how I really feel then this link is for you:

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    Don't blame me if you don't like what you see!






    Have some green....Well said!

  7. #7
    RBW Member Seldom Here is an unknown quantity at this point Seldom Here's Avatar
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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    Whether or not Poseidon's marketing is ethical or right was not why I posted their white paper (that is a debate far too thorny for me).

    I posted it for two reasons.

    1) I think it is great that Poseidon is making their investigative findings of dive accidents available to the general public, albeit in a highly distilled format. Personally, I would like to see more openness about diving accidents so we can all learn from them and new divers are well informed of the real risks involved be it CCR, SCR or OC.

    2) The fact that there have been incidents resulting in fatalities using a "fully automated" CCR should be publicized. It is very rare that the equipment is what fails in any incident (and if it does, it is usually as a result or neglect or misuse).
    The main cause of all diving incidents is human error. Be that making a mistake during setup, ignoring check lists, ignoring errors, diving outside comfort zone, diving in conditions you have not been trained for, poor judgement, lack of training for emergencies or poor training from an instructor.

    New CCR divers need real information. Through forums like this where they can tap into years of experience, through openness in the industry about the risks and through quality training. Unfortunately, I feel the latter will go the way that OC has and become nothing more than a sausage factory eventually.


    As CCRs get more and more automated, with more checks and tests and sensors, the weakest link will still be the diver.

  8. #8
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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Seldom Here  View Original Post
    Whether or not Poseidon's marketing is ethical or right was not why I posted their white paper (that is a debate far too thorny for me).

    I posted it for two reasons.

    1) I think it is great that Poseidon is making their investigative findings of dive accidents available to the general public, albeit in a highly distilled format. Personally, I would like to see more openness about diving accidents so we can all learn from them and new divers are well informed of the real risks involved be it CCR, SCR or OC.

    2) The fact that there have been incidents resulting in fatalities using a "fully automated" CCR should be publicized. It is very rare that the equipment is what fails in any incident (and if it does, it is usually as a result or neglect or misuse).
    The main cause of all diving incidents is human error. Be that making a mistake during setup, ignoring check lists, ignoring errors, diving outside comfort zone, diving in conditions you have not been trained for, poor judgement, lack of training for emergencies or poor training from an instructor.

    New CCR divers need real information. Through forums like this where they can tap into years of experience, through openness in the industry about the risks and through quality training. Unfortunately, I feel the latter will go the way that OC has and become nothing more than a sausage factory eventually.


    As CCRs get more and more automated, with more checks and tests and sensors, the weakest link will still be the diver.
    I suggest you re-read this "white paper" (thats a joke in and of itself).

    The entire thing is cleverly worded hot air and should be viewed as an insult by everyone that has an IQ of over 65.

    There's no specific reference to any incident, no specific reference to causes of the incident, no specific remedies suggested.

    Its vague self serving BS, this was released so that stupid people or poorly informed people believe that Poseidon actually cares.

  9. #9
    RBW Member Seldom Here is an unknown quantity at this point Seldom Here's Avatar
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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    I agree that the white paper in itself does not supply the details behind the incidents, but they do release Accident reports where possible:

    http://mkvi.poseidon.com/downloads/A...10-05-31-1.pdf


    A quick google did not show up any other CCR manufacturer (or any diving equipment manufacturer for that matter) releasing similar level of details, only references to forums such as RBW citing news or police reports. I will happily be proven wrong here

    It's a shame that a company tries to make steps into the right direction and gets criticised for it, particularly in this day and age where lawsuits are more common than common sense.

  10. #10
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    Re: Poseidon White Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Seldom Here  View Original Post

    particularly in this day and age where lawsuits are more common than common sense.
    Auh, thats adorable, how clever....good for you tiger!!!!

    You're missing the point, its the extremely dishonest advertising that surrounds the unit.

    Considering its 4 year history (not 5 that the white paper states) the number of issues we've seen with, and I quote "The Poseidon MKVI is the world’s first rebreather for recreational divers. It’s a fully*closed, fully *automated unit that will make you see diving in a different light.", such and inovative masterpiece is quite disturbing.

    Just take a look at the first sentence...its a flat out LIE.....Dreager did that years ago....in the 1990's. FULLY AUTOMATED.....ah thats impossible so its another LIE, and as far as the light goes what they should be telling you is STAY OUT OF THE LIGHT RUN AWAY FROM THE LIGHT. DIvers seeing the light is why we're here.

    They did get fully closed right I suppose thats good.

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