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Thread: Mk vi fatality - portugal

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    Mk vi fatality - portugal

    An experient recreatonal diver was found death today at a shallow depth (?) by other divers participating in the same divie. Accident occured near the city of Setubal in Portugal about 90 km from the capital Lisbon Details are still emerging but accoding some "well informed souces" a preliminary inspection to the CCR envolved reveled that the scrubber cartridhge was absent. If confirmed, the top event is a CO2 hit caused by HUMAN ERROR with possible escalation factors, as the absence of a sofware alarm in the MK VI (recreational CCR) for scrubber (system part missing) not been inserted into the CCR...and psychological marketing factors on safety assurance to users (if no alarm all is well)....

    It´s worring that a CCR marketing moto is ABSOLUTE SAFETY....

    Reality unfortunately shows a diferent side of the coin...

    CCR diving has been done since year 2000 in Portugal. This is the first fatal accident in this country.

    Rgds

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Most unfortunate and I am sad to hear about this. With respect for the perished diver and his family, I will refrain from comment on your remarks regarding the unit used. But there are several vital points that has been overseen by the diver. I just think it is bad judgement to even bring it up like you do.

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    Most unfortunate and I am sad to hear about this. With respect for the perished diver and his family, I will refrain from comment on your remarks regarding the unit used. But there are several vital points that has been overseen by the diver. I just think it is bad judgement to even bring it up like you do.
    +1 I would wait before making comments.
    On how it might have happened. My condolence to the family.

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    My condolences to the family and friends. It is always sad to lose fellow divers.

    I don't know if the initial poster is speaking from fact or speculation. If he is relying on reliable sources, I'm all for posting the information. If it helps one of us, or someone considering diving rebreathers from dying in the same way, then that is a good thing. Everyone makes mistakes. I don't think it disparrages the deceased to talk about how it happened.

    I also don't think it is wrong to highlight the fact that Poseidon has marketed its unit as a recreational rebreather and has highlighted its safety. I'm not debating whether the unit is actually safer than other units...I'm just saying that they market in a certain way which could encourage people to dive their unit without understanding all of the risks involved. For instance, their website states, "Poseidon’s MKVI has 5 big advantages over traditional open circuit equipment: 3 hours typical dive time, Safer and easier to use, Lighter and smaller, No decompressions stops and Silent operation makes you part of the environment; not just a visitor. The MKVI, the first true technological breakthrough in decades, is a game­changer."

    Are they actually making the claim that their unit is safer and easier to use than traditional open circuit equipment? That is absurd.

    I point this out because this is in fact a FORUM. It is a place for people to discuss relevant things. I think that we all agree that it is very sad when people lose loved ones. That should not prevent us from talking about incidents and why they happen. This may include discussion of particular unit faults or even diver error.

    I'm tired of this subject being taboo. It is probably one of the most useful things to read about here. When I did my tech training I did tons of reading about dive incidents and what caused or may have caused them. I actually felt sick sometimes reading about these things and even on the verge of tears, but I am certain that going through that process makes me a more careful and less complacent rebreather diver. If we restrain the conversation to absolute facts, then there would be nothing to discuss. We never know exactly what happened because the best witness is no longer with us. That shouldn't prevent us from looking at the situation and trying to analyze what went wrong.

    Aloha,
    Charlie

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    Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by chunter  View Original Post
    I'm tired of this subject being taboo. It is probably one of the most useful things to read about here. When I did my tech training I did tons of reading about dive incidents and what caused or may have caused them. I actually felt sick sometimes reading about these things and even on the verge of tears, but I am certain that going through that process makes me a more careful and less complacent rebreather diver. If we restrain the conversation to absolute facts, then there would be nothing to discuss. We never know exactly what happened because the best witness is no longer with us. That shouldn't prevent us from looking at the situation and trying to analyze what went wrong.

    Aloha,
    Charlie

    +1

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Okay, since we open that door, I will just make a general comment not related, or might be related to the presumed issue here.

    1. Checklist do cover the scrubber, when assembling the unit
    2. When assembling, if scrubber is not in, you should notice it, since the bottom scrubber lid will rest on the housing with no tension, if the scrubber is absent.
    3. During the 5 minute pre-breathe the diver will detect if there is something wrong with the unit (in terms of CO2) (This I know for a fact).

    Human errors are kept at an absolute minimum with the MkVI, but since we are human, they can occur if we do not follow the instruction of use.

    There is nothing safe with diving, let it be OC or CC. Lets take the Poseidon marketing BS. That of course is built on the assumption that you follow the instruction of use, dont dive if there is an alarm, oversee the few vital checks that you as a diver needs to do and also thumb a dive at any given time for any reason what so ever.

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    Mk vi fatality - portugal

    My condolences to his family.

    I have not personally read the MK VI claims. But they they claim it to be safe, they are misleading to unindoctrinated divers. As I reminded all my students, regardless of their training level, diving always has risks even if you follow the rules.

    As to the need for an alarm, when do we assume responsibility to check our systems? As pointed out earlier, assembly should give some hints. If you do the pre breath as recommended, you should get a CO2 hit on the surface.

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    Okay, since we open that door, I will just make a general comment not related, or might be related to the presumed issue here.

    1. Checklist do cover the scrubber, when assembling the unit
    2. When assembling, if scrubber is not in, you should notice it, since the bottom scrubber lid will rest on the housing with no tension, if the scrubber is absent.
    3. During the 5 minute pre-breathe the diver will detect if there is something wrong with the unit (in terms of CO2) (This I know for a fact).

    Human errors are kept at an absolute minimum with the MkVI, but since we are human, they can occur if we do not follow the instruction of use.

    There is nothing safe with diving, let it be OC or CC. Lets take the Poseidon marketing BS. That of course is built on the assumption that you follow the instruction of use, dont dive if there is an alarm, oversee the few vital checks that you as a diver needs to do and also thumb a dive at any given time for any reason what so ever.
    Just think about this scenario...just imagine it´s a possibility of a imaginary diving accident, i´m not stating this is "what happend"...but just give it a thought and think of it, as a real world scenario...not a perfect world scenario...

    THE STORY BELOW IS A COMPLETE FICTION SCENARIO...ANY RESEMBLANCE WITH KNOWN FACTS IS JUST PURE COINCIDENTAL...

    You send your CCR machine to be "fixed" of some problem to the CCR dealer...wich happens to be your CCR instructor, your dive guru...

    Then you get the machine back and fix "ready to dive"..and ..lucky you, allready with O2 cylinder filling made. For some reason (trust complex) you do not check in the dive store with your dealer if the scrubber has been changed...you assume it was...or you do not even need to do it cause you had a used scrubber inside (still with some dive time) when you´ve send the machine to be fixed...and you assume (again) that it´s still in the machine..

    Now you go diving...and you´re the dive leader and the dive center manager, going with your customers some OC divers, to make a nice weekend recreational shallow dive..you´re the only CCR diver also on board..eager to show the OC divers your fantastic machine, with the added tasks of mooring the boat, perfroming dive brifeings etc,,etc..(task load + peer pressure)...

    Jeppe, did you ever eard about "the God Complex" ??
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_complex

    I think you should consider there´s a real world and there´s a perfect imaginary world...sold to inocent belivers

    CCR check lists should follow aviation most recent protocols (like the CCR Sentinel allready does), that if you fail to check the machine all items or perform predive tasks the CCR alerts for possible fatal outcome (for example failing to do the 4 minutes prebreath test..), as per item 20 in the MK VI before diving check list...

    Just my 2 cents...

    RGDS

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Quote Originally Posted by chunter  View Original Post
    My condolences to the family and friends. It is always sad to lose fellow divers.

    I don't know if the initial poster is speaking from fact or speculation. If he is relying on reliable sources, I'm all for posting the information. If it helps one of us, or someone considering diving rebreathers from dying in the same way, then that is a good thing. Everyone makes mistakes. I don't think it disparrages the deceased to talk about how it happened.

    I also don't think it is wrong to highlight the fact that Poseidon has marketed its unit as a recreational rebreather and has highlighted its safety. I'm not debating whether the unit is actually safer than other units...I'm just saying that they market in a certain way which could encourage people to dive their unit without understanding all of the risks involved. For instance, their website states, "Poseidon’s MKVI has 5 big advantages over traditional open circuit equipment: 3 hours typical dive time, Safer and easier to use, Lighter and smaller, No decompressions stops and Silent operation makes you part of the environment; not just a visitor. The MKVI, the first true technological breakthrough in decades, is a game*changer."

    Are they actually making the claim that their unit is safer and easier to use than traditional open circuit equipment? That is absurd.

    I point this out because this is in fact a FORUM. It is a place for people to discuss relevant things. I think that we all agree that it is very sad when people lose loved ones. That should not prevent us from talking about incidents and why they happen. This may include discussion of particular unit faults or even diver error.

    I'm tired of this subject being taboo. It is probably one of the most useful things to read about here. When I did my tech training I did tons of reading about dive incidents and what caused or may have caused them. I actually felt sick sometimes reading about these things and even on the verge of tears, but I am certain that going through that process makes me a more careful and less complacent rebreather diver. If we restrain the conversation to absolute facts, then there would be nothing to discuss. We never know exactly what happened because the best witness is no longer with us. That shouldn't prevent us from looking at the situation and trying to analyze what went wrong.

    Aloha,
    Charlie

    +1

    Totally agree with Charlie.

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    Re: Mk vi fatality - portugal

    Is this yet another instance of no checklist or the pre-dive list not being used? I seem to recall from RF3 .....

    It really was a stupid mistake which cost a life and again, grief to the family.

    As far as the God complex, well I set my buddy's unit up once and he found out very quickly that you can't trust anyone other than one's self and even then.....

    It seems I forgot to put the half fill adapter in the dolphin scrubber. The scrubber didn't work worth a toss.

    Safe Diving

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