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Thread: Rebreather Safety

  1. #61
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    Re: Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration

    My experience over years of trying and criticising diving equipment for a living, and indeed spending time with many divers in very varying situations, has led me to believe the following:

    1) Divers will heriocally defend their purchasing decisions and react violently or vociferously to any criticism of equipment they have bought and believe in. This increases exponentially according to the purchase price paid. Rarely do people even admit to themselves they bought the wrong kit or are using it in the wrong configuration.

    2) Divers rarely admit publically to the mistakes they make underwater and will be quick to villify anyone who does.

    These two factors, IMHO, obstruct the quest for the truth as to what is actually happening out there.

  2. #62
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration

    Quote Originally Posted by schford
    This reads like you are trolling - you had better not be. There is no way you can draw conclusions from such a small sample. Please keep your focus on what we can do to improve safety - I expect to see headlines like this in the gutter press not on RBW.

    With respect Stuart it was you two years ago who compared the YBOD with the Meg and said no one has ever died on the Meg?? QED its a better unit. The Meg is taking a hammering at the moment and questions do need to be asked as to why the present stats are so poor. It may be (and most probably is) totally unrelated to the unit but on the other hand it should not just be ignored.

    I am curious about the "diver attitude" aspect of this. KISS divers generally don't trust electronics and seem to have a healthy respect for CCR. Is it this state of mind that is keeping them alive? The YBOD has come infor some serious flack over the last five years and a long lits of its short comings is available. Is it this known fallibility of the unit that is making users focus more on how it runs. Is the need to be constantly checking the hand sets a benefit? An even more radical thought is that a lot of previous YBOD owners are moving over to the Meg and Visions / Evo's, is this because the hype has convinced them its a safer unit? Does this lead to a period of being too relaxed diving them?

    These thoughts rattle about in my head as I am trying to justify the risk of jumping in the water with my CCR and balancing it against my duty to and love for my wife and children. I cant die. I am to careful and way too scared to be complacent. Unfortunately I haven't been able to convince my self of this yet so I kiss the kids before I leave for every dive

    It is too easy to get carried away with the "my unit is best" state of mind. The Boris and the Meg are new kids on the block and have a lot of hype surrounding them but in the end they still have the same fallibility as the older CCRs in that when a problem happens it is debilitating. Years of experience and training mean nothing when it hits the fan like this and sadly we have a list of highly experienced divers who's deaths attest to it.

    It would seem to me that OC diving has manageable failures with the exception of deep air diving. As long as CCR has the week links of scrubber design and unreliable PP02 cells we will have a problem.

    I would like to see new safety designs on CCR. One idea I had was a flow meeter on the 02 inject. The flow could be monitored and compared with depth and the known average of 02 usage in a diver and a warning screen could show abnormally high or abnormally low 02 flow. This doesn't have to be alarmed in the mid range it can be a prod to the diver to check things out after all he might be working very hard. However when the unit detects a level of flow dangerously near to unsustainable limits it should give a warning. Rapid depth changes can surely be built into the system to cover decent and ascent?


    ATB

    Mark Chase

  3. #63
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    Re: Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration

    I think a "near misses" slot in the fatality database is an essential suggestion. Anonymous would be good - but I think the CCR-type must be a mandatory field. It's important to know what unit and what modifications are involved.

    Some excellent posts on person/system approach. A unit could be functioning 100%, but if the design is such that a diver needs to be doing a certain thing at a certain time to remain safe, then it is still a unit issue. And if the current training doesn't ensure this, then we have a problem. Hence the need for "near miss" info.

    I dive an Inspiration, a Classic. I know, because of training and the kind posts by those on RBW etc, of many areas where the Inspo needs bolstering.

    I can over-breathe the scrubber - I fitted a BOV
    I can break my handsets - I fitted 4th cell VR£
    The solenoid/handsets can fail - I look at the damn things a lot. (HUD on the way)
    The loop can flood - I carry bailout, and lots of it
    I can lose all my dil - I have a different gas for buoyancy
    I can lose all my O2 - I carry spare.

    The points I am making are that I am not precious about the Inspo - I know it isn't perfect. However, thanks to what I have been told, and what I have read, I know the Inspo isn't perfect, I have a rough idea of why, and I can do something about it.

    So, Meg-owners, relish the fact that your unit is under the spotlight - it's making you safer!

    And please! Let's get the Accident/Incident database going.

  4. #64
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    Re: Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase
    With respect Stuart it was you two years ago who compared the YBOD with the Meg and said no one has ever died on the Meg?? QED its a better unit. The Meg is taking a hammering at the moment and questions do need to be asked as to why the present stats are so poor. It may be (and most probably is) totally unrelated to the unit but on the other hand it should not just be ignored.


    Mark Chase
    I agree with your assessment, but in fairness to stuart, the first Meg death in 2003 was kept very quiet, few people knew of it.. Also 2004 was accident free..
    almost all of the accidents (6 of 7) happend in a period of just longer than 1 year..
    Last edited by jradomski; 27th April 2006 at 12:11.
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  5. #65
    Classic KISS No. 226 RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark is a name known to all RichClark's Avatar
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    Re: Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration

    Quote Originally Posted by jradomski
    I agree with your assessment, but in fairness to stuart, the first Meg death in 2003 was kept very quiet, few people knew of it.. Also 2004 was accident free..
    almost all of the accidents 6 of 7 happend in a period of just longer than 1 year..
    I'm not throwing stones... but do any of those dates coincide with the change in electrics?

    Rich

  6. #66
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    Re: Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration

    Quote Originally Posted by RichClark
    I'm not throwing stones... but do any of those dates coincide with the change in electrics?

    Rich
    Wil Smithers died in November 2002, so its probably safe to assume any unit that was delievered in 2003 and on did not have his electronics but an APECS design (with a few HH (no deaths), and some shearwater (2 deaths that I'm aware of))
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  7. #67
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    Re: Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration

    For IRAP (Near Misses)
    It was done this way at Cavediver.net.
    Web- http://www.cavediver.net/irap/irap_frm.htm

    I would like to see a new section.
    (If we donít learn from our lost friends and comrades we are doomed to repeat them.)
    It needs to have simple oversight.
    Also I like Bruceís P. list.

    If scuba doc can answer medical questions- we need to figure a way to address these issues. Web- http://tenfootstop.blogspot.com/

    This thread is turning unruly and needs closure.
    Enough said.

  8. #68
    RBW Founder schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford has a reputation beyond repute schford's Avatar
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    Re: Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase
    With respect Stuart it was you two years ago who compared the YBOD with the Meg and said no one has ever died on the Meg?? QED its a better unit. The Meg is taking a hammering at the moment and questions do need to be asked as to why the present stats are so poor. It may be (and most probably is) totally unrelated to the unit but on the other hand it should not just be ignored.
    Mark thats a load of shit, I have never said any such thing... 2 years ago I was firmly on the waiting list for an Inspiration Vision and one of the first questions i asked Leon when considering the unit purchase was had any one died on it and yes I was informed at that time one person had died on it.

    My personal opinion is that are lies, damn lies and stats ---> people who only focus on the unit are looking at the wrong thing IMHO. You can cut the pie any way you want but I don't think that gets to the nub of the problem, you have to address so many more factors - eg were they diving solo, carrying bail out, had a medical condition, adequate training etc etc We can then learn lessons ot make diving safer and stop trying to perhaps blame the easiest thing ohhhh x number of people have died on y unit in z time frame.

    This thread is rambling about the place - let me be quite clear I will set up an accident database and we will populate as much as possible, from there we can have an informed discussion where we can see as many facts as we know and attempt if at all possible to draw reasoned conslusions.

    Until such time there will be no more of this counter productive speculation on Rebreather World.
    Last edited by schford; 27th April 2006 at 13:40.

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