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Thread: Out of Date sofnolime 797

  1. #21
    RBW Member jukkao is on a distinguished road jukkao is on a distinguished road jukkao's Avatar
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    Where did you get the info that water is in such a phase in granules that it could "freeze" and leave the granules... in a sealed canister?

    I keep mine in warm place but have not seen any good explanations why I should really do so. It would be easier many times to leave canisters in cold storage or in the car also in winter.

    Jukka
    Last edited by jukkao; 2nd December 2012 at 21:01. Reason: r

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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    In which phase should it be that it could not "freeze out" ?
    AFAIK the moisture content in the reactive lime is not chemically bound but physically bound..
    As it is physically present it most certaintly can freeze..

    Another note for Osiris..
    The first step of the reaction is H20 reacting with CO2 to carbonic acid..
    That reaction is not just instananious in nature.. otherwise we would breathe out directly carbonic acid whch we don't..
    It needs a catalyst that forces the reaction to speed up..
    such catalyst is in the lime as well.. That CO2 first reacts to carbonic acid the H2O needs already to be present in the lime toghether with the catalyst..
    Otherwise if the lime is dried out the induced water would immiately react with the Sodiumydroxide to Sodiumhydrogenecarbonate (caustic caocktail) elimiating the necessary Sodiumhydroxide for the second step reaction with the carbonic acid.. as well as you don't want that caustic in your loop..

  3. #23
    RBW Member jukkao is on a distinguished road jukkao is on a distinguished road jukkao's Avatar
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    I am just interested if someone would know if something meaningfull would happen in cold.

    Sofnolime is quite dry if we compare it to clay in the ground here in Finland. Some water or ice really comes out of clay in winter causing damages. Sofnolime granules might turn in to powder by mechanical forces but I guess not. I do not know. Just asking as freezing was mentionded here. It is always easy to say that something might happen if there is no knowledge.

    I am more afraid of floor heating. Granules on the bottom would be warmer that the ones on top. Vapour pressure would move water from bottom upwards and some can even condensate to the cold canister wall. Perhaps that is no issue anyhow.

    Jukka

  4. #24
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrogenius  View Original Post
    Sorry to disagree, but that is simply wrong, but a quite common misconception.. AFAIK.. Induced moisture due breathing will not start the reaction..
    The moisture needs to be present first in order to start the reaction as far as I understand it !

    If it wasn't wrong we would naver have to waoory about the limes correct moisture content and could use completely dried out lime, because there is always humidity in our breath..
    Really? So explain why the chemical is not reacting in the tub then? Because it isn't according to you, there can be no moisture present. Slightly contradictory, no?

    The act of breathing warm, moist gas through the stack is what kicks it off in the scrubber.
    I have experimented with a dry stack; i.e. a used stack that was left out to dry out for a few hours. It's easy to tell when the when the reaction is working in anger - the headache goes away. The stack started with minimal moisture and the only moisture added was via breathing. This was using self as a lab rat. Maybe you should try that instead of just reading labels?

  5. #25
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    Quote Originally Posted by MHD  View Original Post
    I know a chemistry type person who is pretty stingy with money, he opens his sorb boxes when he gets them, makes sure all the caps are tight on the actual containers and stores then in well insulated room. He's happy to use them well out of date on the basis the moisture content doesn't drop this way. Must admit I dived some of his one day. I just took a more conservative approach to its life, cut it by about a 1/3.
    Matt
    I thought you were talking about me until you used some of his sorb.
    Wiz

  6. #26
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    Quote Originally Posted by osiris  View Original Post
    Maybe you should try that instead of just reading labels?
    Huh? WTF? Can't take someone to simply disagree with you?

    Believe what you like.. maybe you'll survive by chance with such self experiments.

    Anyhow I would appreciate a "stick to facts" discussion instead of getting personal here..
    Simply no reason not to.
    You do not know me. You do not know my diving so why this nonsense comment of trying something instead of reading labels.. What I am stating here is far beyond reading labels !

    Anyways why would I do something of which I 100% know that it just does not work that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by osiris  View Original Post
    I have experimented with a dry stack; i.e. a used stack that was left out to dry out for a few hours.
    A couple of hours is certaintly not drying the lime out in the matter described before. It also depends on the ambient conditions when you do so.
    What you experienced with your onsetting headache is more likely for parts of the lime having reacted with the ambient CO2 than from being initially dry..
    Active lime is relatively dry you do not see or feel the moisture content of "good" lime.
    It would actually be quite difficult to dry out that relatively little bit moisture it has from lime in ambient air.
    That is also not the reason for sealing the tubs..
    To prevent lime from drying out is much more about temperature control in connection with relative and absolute gas humidity, hence the storage temperatur limits given by the lime manufacturers


    Quote Originally Posted by osiris  View Original Post
    The act of breathing warm, moist gas through the stack is what kicks it off in the scrubber.
    I still disagree. That is simply wrong for the moisture part. You could press completely dry CO2 through the scrubber (with good lime that is) and the reaction would still kick off

    Quote Originally Posted by osiris  View Original Post
    Really? So explain why the chemical is not reacting in the tub then? Because it isn't according to you, there can be no moisture present. Slightly contradictory, no?
    Nothing in contradiction here.. Just no CO2 in a sealed tub (to prevent CO2 ingress is the primary motivation to properly seal the tubs), so therefore no reaction.
    Actually that is also not completely correct. After a tub has been opened there always is a wee bit CO2 in the tub from the atmosphere containing always CO2 as well. And this is very well reacting in the tub until it is removed and then there is no more reaction. However this is that little CO2 anyways that it really does not affect the lime overall.

    And once here we are with another thread on lime of which we had a couple of them before on this board.

    Honestly in most of these threads I am finding it quite scary how much lack of knowledge and understanding of the basics of the scrubber reaction is around looking to what essential part the scrubber plays in a rebreather.
    Maybe in the trainings a little more detail is necessary in general on that topic of rebreather diving.

  7. #27
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    Below is from US Navy testing done in 1986. How relevant to this discussion I don't know.

    The results of unmanned performance testing revealed that
    subjecting absorbent material to freezing temperatures prior to use did
    not substantially effect canister duration times in four of the five
    brands tested. Of the five, only PROTOSORB showed marked performance
    degradation as a result of freezing. The relative ranking, from the
    longest to the shortest frozen canister duration time, revealed AGASORB
    as the best performer. Frozen DRAEGERSORB and PROTOSORB had similar
    duration times, followed by HP SODASORB and finally DIVEASORB which
    displayed the poorest performance.

  8. #28
    RBW Member osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris is a splendid one to behold osiris's Avatar
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrogenius  View Original Post
    Huh? WTF? Can't take someone to simply disagree with you?

    Believe what you like.. maybe you'll survive by chance with such self experiments.

    Anyhow I would appreciate a "stick to facts" discussion instead of getting personal here..
    Simply no reason not to.
    You do not know me. You do not know my diving so why this nonsense comment of trying something instead of reading labels.. What I am stating here is far beyond reading labels !

    Anyways why would I do something of which I 100% know that it just does not work that way?



    A couple of hours is certaintly not drying the lime out in the matter described before. It also depends on the ambient conditions when you do so.
    What you experienced with your onsetting headache is more likely for parts of the lime having reacted with the ambient CO2 than from being initially dry..
    Active lime is relatively dry you do not see or feel the moisture content of "good" lime.
    It would actually be quite difficult to dry out that relatively little bit moisture it has from lime in ambient air.
    That is also not the reason for sealing the tubs..
    To prevent lime from drying out is much more about temperature control in connection with relative and absolute gas humidity, hence the storage temperatur limits given by the lime manufacturers




    I still disagree. That is simply wrong for the moisture part. You could press completely dry CO2 through the scrubber (with good lime that is) and the reaction would still kick off



    Nothing in contradiction here.. Just no CO2 in a sealed tub (to prevent CO2 ingress is the primary motivation to properly seal the tubs), so therefore no reaction.
    Actually that is also not completely correct. After a tub has been opened there always is a wee bit CO2 in the tub from the atmosphere containing always CO2 as well. And this is very well reacting in the tub until it is removed and then there is no more reaction. However this is that little CO2 anyways that it really does not affect the lime overall.

    And once here we are with another thread on lime of which we had a couple of them before on this board.

    Honestly in most of these threads I am finding it quite scary how much lack of knowledge and understanding of the basics of the scrubber reaction is around looking to what essential part the scrubber plays in a rebreather.
    Maybe in the trainings a little more detail is necessary in general on that topic of rebreather diving.
    Please reread your response. You contradict yourself several times. I am quite satisfied I understand slime, it's workings and when and when not it is active.

  9. #29
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang  View Original Post
    I thought you were talking about me until you used some of his sorb.
    Wiz
    been secretly skipping over to Perth and stealing yours

  10. #30
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    Re: Out of Date sofnolime 797

    Quote Originally Posted by osiris  View Original Post
    Please reread your response. You contradict yourself several times. I am quite satisfied I understand slime, it's workings and when and when not it is active.
    Well, allright then.

    Not a single contradiction in my posts!

    But obviously we have a complete different understanding here, so further discussion seems senseless..


    Good luck..

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