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Thread: V-Planner - Multi Deco

  1. #11
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    Guys, VPM-B with conservatism 0 or nominal is only for very fit divers. For start use higher conservatism. Something arround +3.

    V-planner is desktop, pocket pc, iPhone and Android available.
    Muktideco is available for Android.
    Multideco-x1 and V-planner live are for x1 computer and Multideco-dr5 is for HW computer.

    Sent from my GT-I5800 using Tapatalk 2

  2. #12
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    Meggy Meg...

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    Re: V-Planner - Multi Deco

    Quote Originally Posted by Valéry  View Original Post
    Well I choose to dive vpm-b with nominal conservatism, that's for every day's dive (0-60m). Sometimes I apply what's next.


    On deeper dive I still stick on vpm-b with nominal conservatism, in case of an emergency I know the minimum deco that I should do before surfacing, if everything goes as planned then I add the amount of time to the last stop we agreed before the dive, corresponding to a cons of 5 or more, on those dive no body is in a hurry to go home.
    Wouldnt you missed the deepper stops like that?

  3. #13
    RBW Member Valery is on a distinguished road Valery is on a distinguished road Valery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw  View Original Post
    Wouldnt you missed the deepper stops like that?
    On the paper I might miss the 1st deep stop (if you're comparing cons 0 to 5 on a trimix dive), in real not important.

    The big difference between cons 0 and 5 are in the last 2 stops. And you can extend the 6m stop until you feel safe to surface (keeping an eye on cns).

    To be clear I'll never surface on a trimix dive with a cons of 0. Usually I add 40min or MORE on the last stop witch if you compare it, would be close to a vpm b/e profile. Like I said before, on such dive no body is in hurry to surface safety comes first. But in case of an emergency and you need to surface it's good to know the minimum (with some dci risk) deco have been made.


    If you don't want to bother yourself simply increase the cons on your computer and cut some slate with different cons incase you need to surface faster.

    Stay in the water and do your deco, no body ever gets hurt by decoing.

  4. #14
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    Re: V-Planner - Multi Deco

    I use multideco on my new X1, and had 10 minutes more on the one with vlpanner ( old ones)

    Both on vpm b + 3...

    Any ideas?

  5. #15
    RBW Member Valery is on a distinguished road Valery is on a distinguished road Valery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw  View Original Post
    I use multideco on my new X1, and had 10 minutes more on the one with vlpanner ( old ones)

    Both on vpm b + 3...

    Any ideas?
    Have you selected same gas on both?

  6. #16
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    Re: V-Planner - Multi Deco

    Trying to figure out. Having a lot is not good! I had 3 x1 with me, one xlinked.

  7. #17
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    Check you have all settings the same on all x1-s. They should geave you same profile if you entered al same settings.

    For conservatism comparisions just plan fewe proffiles with different conservatism settings and you will see the profiles are different in deeper section too. And in deeper section differences hurt. If you use Valery-s aproach you are trying to dive more Buhlman profile than VPM.


    Hope Ross jumps in here.

    Please do the homework and make those plans and compare them.

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  8. #18
    RBW Member Valery is on a distinguished road Valery is on a distinguished road Valery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Igor P  View Original Post
    Check you have all settings the same on all x1-s. They should geave you same profile if you entered al same settings.

    For conservatism comparisions just plan fewe proffiles with different conservatism settings and you will see the profiles are different in deeper section too. And in deeper section differences hurt. If you use Valery-s aproach you are trying to dive more Buhlman profile than VPM.


    Hope Ross jumps in here.

    Please do the homework and make those plans and compare them.

    Sent from my GT-I5800 using Tapatalk 2
    Hi Igor how are you?
    I must disagree with you on this one.

    We all know that the true original algorithm is vpm-b with nominal setting. Adding deep stops or more conservatism (regardless of how excellent is Ross implementation of conservatism) is just modifying the algorithm.

    So since when diving vpm-b at 0 is approaching Buhlman? Even if I'm adding more time at the 6m (on O2 of course) I'm not modifying the algorithm.

    Just run using V-Planner, 2 dives 20min at 100m and compare the difference between cons 0 and 3. And watch where the big difference is.

    I'm not saying that you shouldn't add conservatism to your computer. I'm saying that the main difference between 2 conservatism setting are mostly in 9m and 6m stops.

  9. #19
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    Re: V-Planner - Multi Deco

    Quote Originally Posted by Valéry  View Original Post
    Hi Igor how are you?
    I must disagree with you on this one.

    We all know that the true original algorithm is vpm-b with nominal setting. Adding deep stops or more conservatism (regardless of how excellent is Ross implementation of conservatism) is just modifying the algorithm.

    So since when diving vpm-b at 0 is approaching Buhlman? Even if I'm adding more time at the 6m (on O2 of course) I'm not modifying the algorithm.

    Just run using V-Planner, 2 dives 20min at 100m and compare the difference between cons 0 and 3. And watch where the big difference is.

    I'm not saying that you shouldn't add conservatism to your computer. I'm saying that the main difference between 2 conservatism setting are mostly in 9m and 6m stops.
    Yes, Valery, you are correct the biggest difference is in shallow range, but most important difference is just some minutes in deeper part of the profile. There if not enough time to decompress has the result in muscle and joints DCS.

    Valery I did dives on original VPM-0 algorithm before VPM-B and lot diving after the change. I would with no problem skip some shallow stop time as at most some skin bends are that I risk, but never shorten or skip something in deeper part of the profile. It is not without reason suggested in V-planner manual to start with using VPM-B +3 and from there ad or take of depending on results after diving. There is some people for whom conservatism nominal (0) is enough, and lot of them for whom +3 not enough and switched it to +4 or +5. It all depends on individual diver.

    For Buhlman thing, I meant, shortening deep part of profile - lowering conservatism and than adding to shalow part is kind of Buhlman aproach, get as soon as close to surface as possible and than cure the situation in shalow part. Taking fast and midle tisues to the edge is not good as already minor mistakes can lead to severe DCS ilnes, much lesser damage is taking slow tissure to the edge as mistakes there do not lead to severe DCS.
    Last edited by Igor P; 10th November 2012 at 13:25.

  10. #20
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    Re: V-Planner - Multi Deco

    To help with some questions so far;

    MultiDeco-X1 / DR5 is an extension of the V-Planner Live program. MultiDeco adds more choices for algorithm (ZHL B and C, and the GF add on). MultiDeco-X1 / DR5 include more features, such as 3 concurrent plans running so the diver could swap to a new plan mid-dive as conditions change, or for a bailout out / emergency ascent situation. MultiDeco-X1 / DR5 is also well matched to work with the X-Link as it gives 3 alternate Po2 displays.

    Conservatism:

    What do other models do for conservatism? The simple models (ZHL, GF, etc) will do two things: They might fudge extra time onto the plan as an after thought, or distort the input data to fool the model into calculating something that's not really happening. Tricks like inflating the depth / time internally, expanding the stops artificially. Others will put a bias or factor onto the gas tracking, thereby distorting the data into the model. GF takes a finished plan and then adds extra time onto it. These are all fudges, to morph something different out of a fixed model.

    VPM is the only model with a built in and integral conservatism method inside the actual model calculations. In VPM those (+) settings adjust the thresholds of Critical Radii within the core calculation of VPM. This is significant ability, as it gives the decisions about required deco to the model to compute, based on the actual bubble conditions and required limits. I'm quite proud of this method that I pioneered (duplicated by others).

    Regards
    Last edited by rossh; 11th November 2012 at 03:29.
    Ross Hemingway
    ------------------------------------------

    V-Planner PC, Mac, Mobile, iPhone-iPod, Android. MultiDeco Android, PC, Mac.
    V-Planner Live and MultiDeco-X1 for the Liquivision X1 dive computer.
    MultiDeco-DR5 for the DR-5 dive computer.

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