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Thread: Some foolish thinking going on here

  1. #181
    RBW Member Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike's Avatar
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    Ar you guys seriously trying to convince me that SCR is the answer when your brain to too fuddled to turn the knob on a BOV?
    No

    Nobody has said that...what thread are you (not) reading?

    I have repetedly stated SCR shouldent be taught as a first responce to possable C02 hits (As it was to me in Mod1 and Mod3. C02 Flash card ment do a dill flush and go SCR).
    nobody is disagreeing with you - and i dont believe it really is. certainly scr is NOT the right thing for 1st stage of bail. as everyone here i think agrees with....

    I have repetedly stated that the ONLY place for SCR is in situations where its not possable to carry adiquate OC bailout. IE very deep OW and long comitment OHEs.

    So what are you arguing about? - you agree - again who is saying otherwise?
    I beleive SCR is over sold by instructors and this needs to stop. It needs to be emphasised that SCR is limited in its aplication and carries some risks and that OC bailout is ALWAYS preferable and should ALWAYS be a first responce.
    again - nobody is arguing with you on that!

    I have changed my practices many times folowing threads such as this. Dr Mike once convinced me not to bail on to my inboard 3ltr as a stop gap to going OC on my bailout. His arguments were logical and I changed the way i dived that very week. But on this ocasion I see noting to convince me the value of SCR to most divers is not being over blown.
    most dives arent overhead, most dives dont end in a bail

    too many instructors promoting on loop solutions to problems that are best suited to going off loop.
    too many divers preaching bail solutions that dont always work because they ignore the reality that often divers cant come off the loop. there is no one bail solution. the best bail soliution depends on your situation AND ability at time. i see no sense in not teaching a bail tool.

    Its a bit like the "My CCR is the best" syndrome.


    Just because we dive CCR and on loop options are available, doesnt meen they are the best choice of action.



    ATB

    Mark
    agreed but scr IS a valuable tool that could save a life, ergo it should be taught.

    Personally I have never heard any instructor teach SCR as first bail. That makes no sense and I do not believe many/any instructors are teaching it that way.

    If they are it should stop. (i dont believe it is) ergo your only beef is your feeling that scr is being 'over emphasised' as a bail method. Your evidence for this is the fact that so many divers bail to scr after a hit....no wait.... you never hear that happen.....

  2. #182
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    Quote Originally Posted by Drmike  View Original Post
    no mark you sound ignorant



    CO2 doesnt care how much belief you have in yourself

    heres an idea - all those who have no experience dealing with a co2 hits stop advising others about how to deal with them and how they will effect your rmv and ability to react - before you get someone killed

    Im sorry but you are preaching safety protocal to people based on zero experience with these issues. Thats not right. You have never had to bail after a big co2 hit so you DO NOT KNOW how your rmv will be YOU DO NOT KNOW how you can react.



    ive sucked through bail gas so fast following a hit it scared the living crap out of me. it taught me clearly that NOBODY carries enough bail gas.

    we "guess" how much we need - most people like you guess based on zero experience having never bailed for real after a real co2 hit.

    most people (like you) preach bail methods that often DO NOT WORK in the real world.

    You think you can always just use your BOV but the experiences of those who have had a hit often shows that sometimes its not possible

    we GUESS our bail needs - im sorry but we do.

    that fact alone should demonstrate how having a gas extender tool like scr IS an important safety tool to have



    Your doing a great job of totaly missing the point.

    This thread is about SCR not C02 and i have had more experiance of that than most on here.

    Your post above refered to my post stating i do actualy know my SAC in situations of relaxed diveing, stressed diving and even after a bailout.

    All situations where my OC bailout plan would be much more gas than required bassed on previous experiance with bailout SAC.

    QED for all situations EXCEPT C02 I am 100% confident my SAC planning is fine. So no need for SCR except in an emergancy thats outside normal planning.

    For C02 hits I have no idea what my SAC would be, but i do know going SCR would make things worse due to increased WOB and possable residual C02in the loop.

    I seem to have to apolagise for not having a C02 hit on five diferent makes of CCR despite seven years of diving mainly in the deeper trimix ranges in what most would consider the tougher end of the spectrum conditions of the UK. I regularly run five to six hours on a scrubber

    My current plan is never to have one

    But if i do, ill bail OC and use what gas i have to get to the surface / shallow where the narcosis may reduce enough to let me make other decisions.


    The distractions your putting in:


    You wont be able to bail OC?

    Yes you will with a BOV

    You may not be able to use a BOV if your suffering badly rom C02?

    OK fine but you sure as hell wont be able to use SCR either so your probably screwed.


    Your SAC after a C02 hit will be so high even on a 30lpm gas plan you wont have enough gas?

    Sure that may be so but A you would have to be some kind of athalete to maintain 30+ SAC for any length of time without black out, and B pray do tell me the corect flushing cycle for a 40 SAC on SCR? is it triple flush every four seconds?

    Masive SAC and SCR dont work in my mind

    Go OC try to get your SAC under control and maybe, just maybe you can go SCR once you have got a handle on things


    Persoanaly I think telling people SCR is viable for situations where serious C02 hits above 30 RMV is much more likley to get someone killed.


    Please outline for me in detail how you would go SAC at what RMV above 30lpm which is what the OC plan should be for?


    ATB

    Mark
    Last edited by Mark Chase; 23rd April 2012 at 07:03.

  3. #183
    RBW Member Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike has a reputation beyond repute Drmike's Avatar
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post


    Masive SAC and SCR dont work in my mind

    Go OC try to get your SAC under control and maybe, just maybe you can go SCR once you have got a handle on things


    Persoanaly I think telling people SCR is viable for situations where serious C02 hits above 30 RMV is much more likley to get someone killed.


    Please outline for me in detail how you would go SAC at what RMV above 30lpm which is what the OC plan should be for?


    mark i cant work out if your just being deliberately stupid or annoying. actually i do - your being both

    for the final time

    - NOBODY said to go SCR during a hit
    -NOBODY said to go SCR during high RMV

    You agree that you dont know what your RMV will be during a co2 hit

    ERGO you dont know how much of your limited OC bail gas you will suck up to recover your breathing or to get out of the overhead, ERGO having a tool that could help extend whatever bail gas you have left after recovering breathing on OC is potentially life saving


    Thats it. QED. The rest of discussion is just side tracking


    Your whole premise was wrong from start.

    Your premise that anyone teaches/recomends scr as primary bail during a hit or at times of high RMV is WRONG - nobody does -who is? if people are teaching this then why isnt everyone bailing to scr?? they arent.


    and yes - someone who has never had a co2 hit should not be recommending to others how to deal with one. obviously. the fact you think your rmv would be only 30 speaks volumes!



    stupid thread - im going back under my shell
    Last edited by Drmike; 24th April 2012 at 01:49.

  4. #184
    So many CCR So little etc Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase has a reputation beyond repute Mark Chase's Avatar
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    Re: Some foolish thinking going on here

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Chase  View Original Post
    Your doing a great job of totaly missing the point.

    This thread is about SCR not C02 and i have had more experiance of that than most on here.

    Your post above refered to my post stating i do actualy know my SAC in situations of relaxed diveing, stressed diving and even after a bailout.

    All situations where my OC bailout plan would be much more gas than required bassed on previous experiance with bailout SAC.

    QED for all situations EXCEPT C02 I am 100% confident my SAC planning is fine. So no need for SCR except in an emergancy thats outside normal planning.

    For C02 hits I have no idea what my SAC would be, but i do know going SCR would make things worse due to increased WOB and possable residual C02in the loop.

    I seem to have to apolagise for not having a C02 hit on five diferent makes of CCR despite seven years of diving mainly in the deeper trimix ranges in what most would consider the tougher end of the spectrum conditions of the UK. I regularly run five to six hours on a scrubber

    My current plan is never to have one

    But if i do, ill bail OC and use what gas i have to get to the surface / shallow where the narcosis may reduce enough to let me make other decisions.


    The distractions your putting in:


    You wont be able to bail OC?

    Yes you will with a BOV

    You may not be able to use a BOV if your suffering badly rom C02?

    OK fine but you sure as hell wont be able to use SCR either so your probably screwed.


    Your SAC after a C02 hit will be so high even on a 30lpm gas plan you wont have enough gas?

    Sure that may be so but A you would have to be some kind of athalete to maintain 30+ SAC for any length of time without black out, and B pray do tell me the corect flushing cycle for a 40 SAC on SCR? is it triple flush every four seconds?

    Masive SAC and SCR dont work in my mind

    Go OC try to get your SAC under control and maybe, just maybe you can go SCR once you have got a handle on things


    Persoanaly I think telling people SCR is viable for situations where serious C02 hits above 30 RMV is much more likley to get someone killed.


    Please outline for me in detail how you would go SAC at what RMV above 30lpm which is what the OC plan should be for?


    ATB

    Mark
    Quote Originally Posted by Drmike  View Original Post
    mark i cant work out if your just being deliberately stupid or annoying. actually i do - your being both

    for the final time

    - NOBODY said to go SCR during a hit
    -NOBODY said to go SCR during high RMV

    You agree that you dont know what your RMV will be during a co2 hit

    ERGO you dont know how much of your limited OC bail gas you will suck up to recover your breathing or to get out of the overhead, ERGO having a tool that could help extend whatever bail gas you have left after recovering breathing on OC is potentially life saving

    Thats it. QED. The rest of discussion is just side tracking


    Your whole premise was wrong from start.

    Your premise that anyone teaches/recomends scr as primary bail during a hit or at times of high RMV is WRONG - nobody does -who is? if people are teaching this then why isnt everyone bailing to scr?? they arent.


    and yes - someone who has never had a co2 hit should not be recommending to others how to deal with one. obviously. the fact you think your rmv would be only 30 speaks volumes!



    stupid thread - im going back under my shell


    I think i said this already, severl times and not least of which, in the post imediatly above yours.

    I have highlighted it so you dont have to re read the whole thread, as its prety obvious your not reading all the posts.


    The big problem you will have is from all the reports of time required to recover breathing? They all say its a very long time.


    ATB

    Mark

  5. #185
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