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Thread: Raid

  1. #31
    Dave Tomblin wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc's Avatar
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    Re: Raid

    When the Mk VI was introduced it took a lot of flak because it was so radically different than conventional designs, It seems that training program has also gone well outside conventional thinking and although it gives me the willies to think that people with little undertsanding of rebreathers will be swimming around watching LEDS or whatever to tell them if they are safe, maybe that is the way much of the devices we use these days have gone and we take for granted. Very few people driving cars these days understand how they work.

    One concern I have is when a Mk VI diver wants to cross over to a conventional unit the training path for crossovers assumes a core understanding of CCR that will be absent in the Mk VI student.
    Cheers,

    Dave....

    www.wedivebc.com

  2. #32
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqueline  View Original Post
    Hi Jeppe, if you could explain to me, that for P Rebreather, there's no need to use O2 & "DIL" tanks? Or do they just use only a FiO2 mix? Do they not use CO2 absorbent material to scrub off carbon dioxide? Do they not need to know the need of calibration before diving? These are just some of the basic know-how, there're still a lot. When you say, "Diving a Recreational Rebreather is neither very specialiced or high level", i believe in this case is as simple as 1-2-3...
    No, the operation of a Discovery MkVI is as with any other CCR. A 3L O2 and a 3L Dil. It usese sofnolime 797 prepacked scrubbers. The machine uses fixed pO2 setpoints that are controlled by the onboard computer 0.4 at surface then dropping down to 1.2 at approx 12 meters.

    The normal startup procedure for a Discovery MkVI is:
    Put the machine together
    Analyze gas
    Put the prepacked scrubber in canister
    Perform a negative loop pressure test (this is the only test that the machine cannot performe on its own)
    Start the machine
    Interact with the machine when needed (open O2 valve, open Dil valve, switching position on the BOV and breathing in OC mode). The machine runs through some 55 Tests in 3 minutes, including a positive loop pressure test and sensor calibration and validation test, O2 and Diluent flush.
    After this, the only thing that remains before the dive is a 5 min prebreath.

    It will not pass if any of the test fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqueline  View Original Post
    IMO, if this checks are not done, it will be then, "h...". So, I hope there's no creation of misunderstanding that diving a Rebreather is neither specialiced nor high-level.

    =======> I learnt the hard way... so, I didn't know there's an easy way to Rebreather diving. Perhaps you could explain your terminology.

    P.S. I didn't say a P RB is not a good machine, but if false impressions of diving a recycling machine is as simple as OC, then the consequences is yet another sigh.

    cheers
    So, the checks are done as described above, the machine tells you either, Yes I am ready to dive or No, dont dive with me.

    This is as simple as it gets, but you still need to understand the machine of course and what it does, but most of the checks are computer controlled. There is still the need for a check list. I dont see the high technical level here. Oh and by the way, The discovery is (to my knowledge) the only machine who has sensor validation throughout the dive.

    I never stated that diving a rebreather is as simple as OC, but diving a Discovery MkVI is pretty close, I guess that's why they are branding it a recreational rebreather

    Or as Einstein said; Everything should be done as simple as possible, but not simpler.

    Safe diving
    Last edited by Jeppe_E; 12th January 2012 at 14:52.

  3. #33
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    One concern I have is when a Mk VI diver wants to cross over to a conventional unit the training path for crossovers assumes a core understanding of CCR that will be absent in the Mk VI student.
    Why do you assume that the core understanding of a Rebreather is absent?
    Diving Type T rebreathers are not for everyone, but diving an Type R rebreather just might be. Those who shouldnt dive OC, should of course not dive an RB as well. The understanding of a rebreather is covered in chapter 1 of the course. After this, you need to fill in the blind spots yourself, if any. This is where the instructor comes in handy, or a book like Rebreather Simplified.

  4. #34
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    Re: Raid

    [QUOTE=Jeppe_E;388297]No, the operation of a Discovery MkVI is as with any other CCR. A 3L O2 and a 3L Dil. It usese sofnolime 797 prepacked scrubbers. The machine uses fixed pO2 setpoints that are controlled by the onboard computer 0.4 at surface then dropping down to 1.2 at approx 12 meters.

    The normal startup procedure for a Discovery MkVI is:
    Put the machine together
    Analyze gas
    Put the prepacked scrubber in canister
    Perform a negative loop pressure test (this is the only test that the machine cannot performe on its own)
    Start the machine
    Interact with the machine when needed (open O2 valve, open Dil valve, switching position on the BOV and breathing in OC mode). The machine runs through some 55 Tests in 3 minutes, including a positive loop pressure test and sensor calibration and validation test, O2 and Diluent flush.
    After this, the only thing that remains before the dive is a 5 min prebreath.

    It will not pass if any of the test fails.

    =====> Aren't these which you mentioned above 'specialiced"?

  5. #35
    Dave Tomblin wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc has a reputation beyond repute wedivebc's Avatar
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    Why do you assume that the core understanding of a Rebreather is absent?
    Diving Type T rebreathers are not for everyone, but diving an Type R rebreather just might be. Those who shouldnt dive OC, should of course not dive an Rebreather as well. The understanding of a rebreather is covered in chapter 1 of the course. After this, you need to fill in the blind spots yourself, if any. This is where the instructor comes in handy, or a book like Rebreather Simplified.
    Well since you say advanced nitrox training is not required as a prerequisite I can only make certain assumptions based on that.
    As an example I teach my student how to ascertain their depth based on PO2 of the diluent when flushing. It is not practical of course but an important mental exercise. I teach my student how to calculate loop fO2 at any given depth. These things require a basic understanding of Dalton's and Boyle's law that is not covered in most basic nitrox courses.
    The book you mention above is a fine teaching tool and I have started providing it to my students but it does not cover basic nitrox theory because it assumes that has been covered before the student embarks on CCR training. If one were to attempt to learn CCR theory without that prerequisite knowledge I expect they would soon become hopelessly lost. And even if they didn't from the training outline you provided I doubt there would be any way to ensure they did understand it.
    You came into this thread trying to convince us that RAID training covered all aspects nessasary to safely dive a MK VI yet now you are suggesting the student should seek further education through external means (RB simplified) to ensure the "blind spots" are filled. I am sorry, with a true CCR training program there should be NO blind spots!
    Cheers,

    Dave....

    www.wedivebc.com

  6. #36
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    Re: Raid

    How do you even get an O2 cylinder filled if you don't have Advanced Nitrox to 100% O2 Cert??

  7. #37
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    Well, that is the whole concept behind a fully automated eCCR. You simply cannot do anything else than to bail out if needed. there are no manual overrides. If it doesn't tell me to bail out and I still feel strange - When in doubt, bail out.

    You know, this is a lot like the RB80. I can appreciate that.
    It is very simple to operate, and if *anything* isn't working right, just bail.
    There is none of the diagnosis that most CCR divers go though. I really love the simplicity of it. Almost any dummy can dive something this simple - HOWEVER, I don't think that just anybody should be diving a rebreather - even if it is as simple as an RB80 or one of these "automatic eCCRs".

    On a simple 18m (60ft) purely recreational dive, any rebreather, even a simple rebreather, adds a degree of technical complication. Like it or not, a rebreather is very technical in nature. It introduces more gear, single points of failure, task loading, more difficult buoyancy control, and the risks of hypoxia/hyperoxia/hypercapnia where none would have been present on OC.

    Dumbing down rebreather training for the average diver is not a good idea.
    A thorough training course and lots of experience is what will save a diver when problems arise.

  8. #38
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqueline  View Original Post
    =====> Aren't these which you mentioned above 'specialiced"?
    No, they are machine specific and for obvious reason taught by the instructor, as you cannot buy this rig without taking or having a certification. So I simply cannot see the fuzz about this. Its like diving OC, you still need to know your equipment. That too is specialized skill for a new diver.

  9. #39
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    As an example I teach my student how to ascertain their depth based on PO2 of the diluent when flushing. It is not practical of course but an important mental exercise. I teach my student how to calculate loop fO2 at any given depth. These things require a basic understanding of Dalton's and Boyle's law that is not covered in most basic nitrox courses.
    So you mean it is important to teach something that cannot be used on the specific rebreather? Dont get me wrong here, I am all for education and knowledge. If it was a needed skill, it would of course be taught.

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    You came into this thread trying to convince us that RAID training covered all aspects nessasary to safely dive a MK VI yet now you are suggesting the student should seek further education through external means (Rebreather simplified) to ensure the "blind spots" are filled. I am sorry, with a true CCR training program there should be NO blind spots!
    Nope, the RAID and PADI covers all aspects necessary to safely dive a MkVI. But IF one wants deeper understanding above and beyond the course, that book is a good place to start. I have not found any blind spots in the course that relates to the MkVI. Any questions raised by the textbook has been sorted out by my instructor.

  10. #40
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by DwayneJ  View Original Post
    How do you even get an O2 cylinder filled if you don't have Advanced Nitrox to 100% O2 Cert??
    Ummm.... let me think about that for a sec.


    The machine uses 100% O2 and you are certified for it? pretty much the same as you need an OW to fill Air.

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