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Thread: Raid

  1. #21
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Li  View Original Post
    Actually seeing all these agencies asking for this and that to have before diving the rebreather and instructors charging highing some exhorbitant fees makes mw want to drop all this rebreather and be contented with normal diving. I just wonder....
    With due respect, I think you just answered your own question.


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  2. #22
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    Re: Raid

    pardon me for saying this.. but you want it fast & affordable, ATB is all I say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymond Li  View Original Post
    Hi Jeppe

    I have more or less sorted out everything except the training agency. RAID is the only user friendly agency who advocates rebreather training in a very user friendly and convenient way I can see. TDI and similar for example asks for Advanced Nitrox and some even Deco Procedures. Theory maybe on line but in water training is still under an instructor. The ultimate result is theory and water skills given to the trainee by any agency but he has to dive to gain experience and the sooner he does it the better. Sitting in classroom or in front of computer online and reading notes after notes and doing that short spell in the pool and open water under supervision is good but not enough. He has to dive and to dive shallow and conservatively. Finally the diver is still the one who controls the rebreather set. If he does not understand how to then better not dive it.

    Actually seeing all these agencies asking for this and that to have before diving the rebreather and instructors charging highing some exhorbitant fees makes mw want to drop all this rebreather and be contented with normal diving. I just wonder...

    So I don't know really if training with a well known named agency makes the difference.

    Thats my 2cents worth of thoughts.

  3. #23
    RBW Member Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse is a glorious beacon of light Packhorse's Avatar
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    Re: Raid

    So does the RAID MK VI course include the use of a separate bail out cylinder?

  4. #24
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Packhorse  View Original Post
    So does the RAID MK VI course include the use of a separate bail out cylinder?

    Oh noo we are not going there in this thread too ;)

    First I am stupid to have a bail-out diving to 30 meters, and then I have the wrong approach to rebreathers... lol

    Like Chris is saying, times are changing.

    But to answer your question, yes RAID course 3 includes the usage of a separate bail out cylinder.

  5. #25
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    Re: Raid

    What is Raid course 3? and I may be a little presumptuous but does it come after 1 and 2? If so what are they?

  6. #26
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by tecdiverdude  View Original Post
    Simpy stating that it is an automatic rebreather and when it tells you to... you cant do anything, but bail out.
    It has been mentioned above, that this works fine, as long as the computer tells you to bail out... what if it doesnt?
    We all know windows crashes.. .we all know about bugs in software...
    there is always the possibility that a certain event could cause the computer to fail to tell you to bail out...
    this is where diver knowlede comes in... an inherent sense of distrust of the software itself is healthy... you SHOULD question what the controller is telling you and compare it to what you know is right.
    Well, that is the whole concept behind a fully automated eCCR. You simply cannot do anything else than to bail out if needed. there are no manual overrides. If it doesn't tell me to bail out and I still feel strange - When in doubt, bail out. I think this is very person dependent, some trust electronics, while others dont. Of course you should not just belive what the display is telling you. If it tells me everything is OK, but I still feel strange - Bail out. This is emphasized time and time again during the course. Both by the instructor and in the textbook. But the knowledge to see the signs (even if most of them are discribed in the textbook) must be something that is taught at all times when diving.

    Quote Originally Posted by tecdiverdude  View Original Post
    Never trust electronics. they are imperfect. cause they were dsigned, built and coded by imperfect humans.
    Sure you can disagree with me and say that a software malfunction will never occur that owuld make the controller "lie " to me... but are you willing to bet your life on it?
    Thats one approach, to never trust electronics. Another one is to trust them, but to be mindful. We wouldnt be diving at all if we didn't trust our equipment, right?

    Of course a software bug or software error can make the controller lie to me, as it could with any other RB. When in doubt - Bail out.

    Quote Originally Posted by tecdiverdude  View Original Post
    So in conclusion I dont brlieve a Recreational course even for a fully automated unit will be enough knowledge.. Hell.. half of the Tec mod1s arent enough knowledge to be safe.
    Ah, yes. I believe this is the real core behind all of this. You have too little faith in the instructors teaching these courses and you think that everybody driving a car, should have at least a truck driver licens?

    At least for me, I can say that the course material and the instructor has given me what is needed to dive with the MkVI in a safe way. Now it is up to me to extend the knowledge and to continue to be mindful when diving (like with OC).

    But somehow I get the feeling that the high tech hard core rebreather society will never let an recreational eCCR through the door.

  7. #27
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    Re: Raid

    Simpy stating that it is an automatic rebreather and when it tells you to... you cant do anything, but bail out.
    It has been mentioned above, that this works fine, as long as the computer tells you to bail out... what if it doesnt?

    J ==> Totally agree with you, Rob.


    We all know windows crashes.. .we all know about bugs in software...
    there is always the possibility that a certain event could cause the computer to fail to tell you to bail out...
    this is where diver knowlede comes in... an inherent sense of distrust of the software itself is healthy... you SHOULD question what the controller is telling you and compare it to what you know is right.

    Never trust electronics. they are imperfect. cause they were dsigned, built and coded by imperfect humans.

    J ======> which is why I prefer to be my own electronics by using manual.

    Sure you can disagree with me and say that a software malfunction will never occur that owuld make the controller "lie " to me... but are you willing to bet your life on it?
    So in conclusion I dont brlieve a Recreational course even for a fully automated unit will be enough knowledge.. Hell.. half of the Tec mod1s arent enough knowledge to be safe.

    J ====>If any PADI Advanced OWD can take up RB courses without going through the basic Technical part, it's like jumping from the staircase a few steps in advance. IMO, RB/Technical diving is a very specialised and high level diving. It requires patience to learn the theory, HOURS to log enough underwater experience and an intermediate know-how to maintain your machine, if not basic. On the road there is short-cut, but there's none in this kind of extreme sports!
    Last edited by Jacqueline; 12th January 2012 at 08:09.

  8. #28
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacqueline  View Original Post
    J ====>If any PADI Advanced OWD can take up RB courses without going through the basic Technical part, it's like jumping from the staircase a few steps in advance. IMO, RB/Technical diving is a very specialised and high level diving. It requires patience to learn the theory, HOURS to log enough underwater experience and an intermediate know-how to maintain your machine, if not basic. On the road there is short-cut, but there's none in this kind of extreme sports!
    Hi Jacqueline

    Please explain to me exactly what technical parts and why you presume that it's not in the course?

    As I see it, some of you that has been teached on a Type T RB are asuming that also a Type R RB should have the same education. That they are complex machines that are only made for a few selected people. Diving a Recreational Rebreather is neither very specialiced or high level. This is the part where most technical Rebreather Divers gets upset, because in their world there is no chance in hell that this will work out.

    I totally agree with you that there are no shortcuts, you need to learn how to dive your Rebreather, and I try to be open minded about other (more technical) rebreathers, I find it sad to see that it isn't working the other way around. The Rebreather World need to understand and accept the Recreational Rebreather for what it is, and also accept the divers who choose to dive with them.

  9. #29
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Packhorse  View Original Post
    What is Raid course 3? and I may be a little presumptuous but does it come after 1 and 2? If so what are they?
    I guess this will also Blow up in my face, but this is RAID requirement

    RAID 1:
    PURPOSE OF THE COURSE

    The core rebreather course is designed to train people with either no diving experience or
    train Open Circuit divers with NO rebreather skills in the safe use and technology of basic
    Rebreather diving with no decompression, up to 1.2 PpO2 and to a maximum depth of 20
    metres.
    PREREQUISITES
    To be able to swim comfortably.
    To be a minimum of 15 years old or subject to the rebreather speciality programme.
    Completion of Level 1 academic quick quiz and exam
    Completion of a Rebreather Speciality academic quick quiz and exam

    This is a MKVI specific level

    RAID 2:
    PURPOSE OF THE COURSE

    This exciting development course is designed to train students in the safe use and
    technology of Rebreather diving with no decompression, up to 1.2 PpO2 and to a
    maximum depth of 30 metres. Also included is open circuit and nitrox certification.
    PREREQUISITES
    To be a minimum of 15 years old
    Completed and passed Level 2 academic section Quick Quiz and Exam.
    Have a minimum of 6 hours logged in water time (confined and openwater) on a
    rebreather.
    Have a RAID Level 1 or equivalent certification from a recognised training agency
    and/or complete, to the satisfaction of the instructor, the minimum in water rebreather
    Level 1 skills. The instructor is to evaluate these skills.
    RAID rebreather Speciality certification or equivalent certification from a recognised
    training agency OR Complete in addition to the core Level 2 training, the academic
    section, Quick Quiz and Exam of a specific RAID Rebreather Speciality programme.

    RAID 3:
    PURPOSE OF THE COURSE

    This course is designed to train students in the safe use and technology of rebreather
    diving with no decompression, up to 1.2 PpO2 and to a maximum depth of 40 metres.
    PREREQUISITES
    To be minimum of 16 years old or subject to the Rebreather Specialty programme.
    To be certified diver for at least 3 months.
    Completed and passed Level 3 academic section Quick Quiz and Exam.
    To start the programme, have a minimum of 15 hours logged in water time (confined and
    openwater) on a rebreather.
    Have a RAID Rebreather Level 2 or equivalent certification from a recognised training
    agency and/or complete, to the satisfaction of the instructor, the minimum in water
    rebreather Level 2 skills. The instructor is to evaluate these skills.
    RAID rebreather Specialty certification or equivalent certification from a recognised
    training agency OR Complete and pass, in addition to the core rebreather Level 3
    training, the academic Quick Quiz and Exam sections of a RAID Rebreather Specialty
    programme.
    To submit Deep (limited depth 30m/66 ft), Night/Restricted Visibility, Navigation,
    Search and Discovery certificate and/or equivalent.
    Submit a current Rescue Breathing/CPR Training and Oxygen Provider certificate
    (DAN/equivalent). Documented proof of prerequisite requirements needs to be presented
    to the Dive Centre for approval prior to any in water training.

  10. #30
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    Re: Raid

    [QUOTE=Jeppe_E;388275]Hi Jacqueline

    Please explain to me exactly what technical parts and why you presume that it's not in the course?

    As I see it, some of you that has been teached on a Type T Rebreather are asuming that also a Type R Rebreather should have the same education. That they are complex machines that are only made for a few selected people. Diving a Recreational Rebreather is neither very specialiced or high level. This is the part where most technical Rebreather Divers gets upset, because in their world there is no chance in hell that this will work out.

    ===> Hi Jeppe, if you could explain to me, that for P RB, there's no need to use O2 & "DIL" tanks? Or do they just use only a FiO2 mix? Do they not use CO2 absorbent material to scrub off carbon dioxide? Do they not need to know the need of calibration before diving? These are just some of the basic know-how, there're still a lot. When you say, "Diving a Recreational Rebreather is neither very specialiced or high level", i believe in this case is as simple as 1-2-3...

    IMO, if this checks are not done, it will be then, "h...". So, I hope there's no creation of misunderstanding that diving a RB is neither specialiced nor high-level.

    I totally agree with you that there are no shortcuts, you need to learn how to dive your Rebreather, and I try to be open minded about other (more technical) rebreathers, I find it sad to see that it isn't working the other way around. The Rebreather World need to understand and accept the Recreational Rebreather for what it is, and also accept the divers who choose to dive with them.

    =======> I learnt the hard way... so, I didn't know there's an easy way to RB diving. Perhaps you could explain your terminology.

    P.S. I didn't say a P RB is not a good machine, but if false impressions of diving a recycling machine is as simple as OC, then the consequences is yet another sigh.

    cheers
    Last edited by Jacqueline; 12th January 2012 at 13:40.

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