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Thread: Raid

  1. #11
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by wedivebc  View Original Post
    And yes you are right basic nitrox is for up to 40% and that is why advanced nitrox is a prerequisite for CCR training.
    PADI as an agency has dumbed down dive training across the board and so it continues with CCR diving.
    I am not going into this any further, but since we are discussing eCCR machines here in this thread, one cannot strictly implement T CCR knowledge, it's like everybody who gets a drivers license has to learn it by driving a big truck.

    Since PADI has chosen to go with machines that electronically controls pO2 setpoint. This is what you need to learn. The course is machine dependent, as many CCR course are. You learn to dive the Discovery MkVI in a safe way. I dont find this dumbed down at all. I dont care about the agency behind the certification, I care about the instructor.

    Then its up to me as an individual to obtain the knowledge needed, and the knowledge needed for diving an eCCR is right there in the learning material. I am pretty sure you havenīt seen the PADI material on the CCR course (at least it doesn't sound like it).

    Since I strive for knowledge more or less constantly, I have also read Rebreather Simplified, and Trimix Rebreather Simplified, which is two great books. But to dive the machine, you are fine with the course material
    Last edited by Jeppe_E; 11th January 2012 at 17:14.

  2. #12
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    You dont need to understand ppo2 and Dalton on PADI courses? Is that really the case? If that is true then they really deserve every bit of abuse it earns them.

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

  3. #13
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by lizardland  View Original Post
    You dont need to understand ppo2 and Dalton on PADI courses? Is that really the case? If that is true then they really deserve every bit of abuse it earns them.

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

    Lets not get ahead of ourself now....

    I think that Daltons Law was on my CMAS* Dont know about PADI here. But yes, understanding your pO2 is in both the EANx course and definitely in the RB Course.

  4. #14
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    Re: Raid

    Sticking to the original question, I am RAID Instructor and I find the system very good as mentioned before it does come down to the individual how they like to learn.

    I found it good when I went through the system and the students i've taught through it had nothing bad to say.

    Steve

  5. #15
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    I am not going into this any further, but since we are discussing eCCR machines here in this thread, one cannot strictly implement T CCR knowledge, it's like everybody who gets a drivers license has to learn it by driving a big truck.

    Since PADI has chosen to go with machines that electronically controls pO2 setpoint. This is what you need to learn. The course is machine dependent, as many CCR course are. You learn to dive the Discovery MkVI in a safe way. I dont find this dumbed down at all. I dont care about the agency behind the certification, I care about the instructor.

    Then its up to me as an individual to obtain the knowledge needed, and the knowledge needed for diving an eCCR is right there in the learning material. I am pretty sure you havenīt seen the PADI material on the CCR course (at least it doesn't sound like it).

    Since I strive for knowledge more or less constantly, I have also read Rebreather Simplified, and Trimix Rebreather Simplified, which is two great books. But to dive the machine, you are fine with the course material
    I think this is the part most ccr diver take objection to... over simplifying and underteaching the basis to the workings of the machine, and how to understand when it is "lying" to you or just plain out trying to kill u

  6. #16
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by tecdiverdude  View Original Post
    I think this is the part most ccr diver take objection to... over simplifying and underteaching the basis to the workings of the machine, and how to understand when it is "lying" to you or just plain out trying to kill u
    Well, I totally agree. Knowledge of your machine is crucial. But at the same time one has to differentiate a T and R Rebreather. We are discussing Raid and PADI here, both on the subject of teaching a specific RB. Namely, the Poseidon Discovery MkVI.

    The whole idea behind the MkVI is to keep it simple, yet safe. There is nothing over simplifying neither under teaching about it. Now, as a new RB diver, I have full respect for those who dives other RB's. But in the case of the eCCR that are approved for these courses, it is built to keep you alive and not the opposite, as some of you might think.

    The MkVI can kill you, but will not do so without a letter of notice. Only time it wont tell is if your display, hud and electronics all fail simultaneous. In which case, you bail out. Now this is the part where most of the technical rebreather divers turn their backs and would never trust a computer to maintain a breathable loop.

    It is a recreational rebreather and must be treated as such. I think it's very presumptuous to discus it as anything else. If one don't understand how the Discovery works, it is a bit hard to keep an open discussion.

    The course is very clear for me as a new RB diver
    Always know your pO2
    When in doubt - bail out

    Oh.. and one thing more... Have fun while diving, wether its OC, a rEVO, an Pelagian, an Evo, an Discovery MkVI or whatever.

    But this thread was about Raid courses, and as Steve below here states, he likes the system and are happy to teach it to new rebreather divers. Kudos to ou steve for opening a new kind of diving for people.
    Last edited by Jeppe_E; 11th January 2012 at 23:02.

  7. #17
    RBW Member Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q is a name known to all Tony_Q's Avatar
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeppe_E  View Original Post
    I am not going into this any further, but since we are discussing eCCR machines here in this thread, one cannot strictly implement T CCR knowledge, it's like everybody who gets a drivers license has to learn it by driving a big truck.

    Since PADI has chosen to go with machines that electronically controls pO2 setpoint. This is what you need to learn.
    Your logic on this is fundamentally and potentially lethally flawed.

    PADI may have chosen to go with a machine that electronically controls PO2, but this is far from all that you need to learn.

    A MK VI has almost killed one diver due to frozen cell readings (there was a good investigation by Poseidon and they modified the algorithm to eliminate the specific cause in that particular case).

    A thorough understanding of PO2 to "T" level is one element of information which requires proper understanding, irrespective of what type of rebreather is being dived, due to the importance of a diver being alert to when the rebreather has malfunctioned and not working as it should.

    Simplifying a course to eliminate manual-mode operation of the CCR is quite a separate issue to ensuring students have an understanding of the theory of rebreather operation necessary to identify critical unit failures not identifed by the units built-in "abort" systems.

    "Trust-me" diving whether OC or CCR is a risky business. Believing that you are safe on a CCR because a handset hasn't told you to abort takes things to a new level of unnecessary danger.

    The foregoing is not directed as a specific criticism of PADI or any other CCR course, but at the mindset that because a CCR has automatic setpoint control and "Abort!" warnings, some lesser understanding of fundamental CCR operating principles is adequate to safely dive a unit.

    Tony

  8. #18
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    Re: Raid

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Q  View Original Post
    Your logic on this is fundamentally and potentially lethally flawed.

    PADI may have chosen to go with a machine that electronically controls PO2, but this is far from all that you need to learn.
    Of course, I am clearly not getting through, since you interpret my text as such. My mistake.

    A rebreather diver needs to learn a lot of new things, maybe I am simplyfing to much in the written form, to keep it short. One of course needs to have full understanding and implications of a high/low pO2 means, but as the MkVI is a fully automated RB there is nothing much you can do, more than bail out. Of course, one could argue that if you get a too high pO2 value you need to ascend. But the proper thing to do is bail out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Q  View Original Post

    Simplifying a course to eliminate manual-mode operation of the CCR is quite a separate issue to ensuring students have an understanding of the theory of rebreather operation necessary to identify critical unit failures not identifed by the units built-in "abort" systems.
    Again, I am not simplyfing anything about the course, but the fact remains, you learn very little about the T CCR's and manual mode, since it is not applicable. The theory of how a RB works are in the material, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony_Q  View Original Post
    "Trust-me" diving whether OC or CCR is a risky business. Believing that you are safe on a CCR because a handset hasn't told you to abort takes things to a new level of unnecessary danger.

    The foregoing is not directed as a specific criticism of PADI or any other CCR course, but at the mindset that because a CCR has automatic setpoint control and "Abort!" warnings, some lesser understanding of fundamental CCR operating principles is adequate to safely dive a unit.

    Tony
    No arguing there. You are only safe as long as you understand what is on your display, both the Poseidon manual and the course material are very clear on this point. When in doubt - bail out.

    Fundamental operation principles of a rebreather is of course taught, as mentioned above. But for obvious reasons the course does not teach you how to fly a RB manually, since it is not applicable.

    You learn about rebreathers and you learn how to dive safe with the MkVI. Is that a wrong approach? Trust me, I am not taking this lightly. I too old for that ;)

  9. #19
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    Re: Raid

    I guess a wrong approach is in what you have said.
    Simpy stating that it is an automatic rebreather and when it tells you to... you cant do anything, but bail out.
    It has been mentioned above, that this works fine, as long as the computer tells you to bail out... what if it doesnt?
    We all know windows crashes.. .we all know about bugs in software...
    there is always the possibility that a certain event could cause the computer to fail to tell you to bail out...
    this is where diver knowlede comes in... an inherent sense of distrust of the software itself is healthy... you SHOULD question what the controller is telling you and compare it to what you know is right.
    Never trust electronics. they are imperfect. cause they were dsigned, built and coded by imperfect humans.
    Sure you can disagree with me and say that a software malfunction will never occur that owuld make the controller "lie " to me... but are you willing to bet your life on it?
    So in conclusion I dont brlieve a Recreational course even for a fully automated unit will be enough knowledge.. Hell.. half of the Tec mod1s arent enough knowledge to be safe.
    Last edited by tecdiverdude; 12th January 2012 at 01:18. Reason: forgot my point

  10. #20
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    Re: Raid

    In 1974 when I first did OC training it was with BSAC. Part of your basic training was the gas laws,Doltons,Henry's and Charles.Times have changed and e-learning has become part of our training for better or worse. Good face to face instruction will never be replaced basically because just the look on students face gives us instructors an idea if it is sinking in. I have never taught rebreather's but have thirty years OC experience and have been certified on three units. I have found the quality of all courses I did was fine. I do not think agency matters as long as the knowledge and quality is there.

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