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Thread: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

  1. #41
    RBW Member Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraymaekers  View Original Post
    hi Rod,

    the time to get CE done is different from only third party testing: the idea is that if you do third party/machine testing, that you learn from it and adapt your product to improve it, so that at the end it can meet some standards
    manned testing can not do that, as you can never repeat the test exactly the same way, when you made a small modification to the rig, and want to see the influence of only that changement/improvement: so research, machine testing, modifying, machine testing again and get feed-back from form the modification, and so on and on...
    it took us around 2 years from the start of third party testing, then installing our own test lab, till we got CE on the impoved/modified unit (going from the rEvo II to the rEvo III)

    it is an expencive proces, but it was clearly worth it!

    paul
    Paul when conceived you design what was the process,did you build it and take it in the water and give it a suck so to speak and move on from there. As you say machine testing can be replicated time and time again to know parameters but at some time during the creative process you must have spent a lot of time actually seeing how it felt and worked in the water to know you were on the right track. Time spend finding what felt right and what you think needed work. I am sure if it felt good the machine told you exactly that. Your actual head down time has to be a big part of what you have created.

  2. #42
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Kennedy  View Original Post
    Paul when conceived you design what was the process,did you build it and take it in the water and give it a suck so to speak and move on from there. As you say machine testing can be replicated time and time again to know parameters but at some time during the creative process you must have spent a lot of time actually seeing how it felt and worked in the water to know you were on the right track. Time spend finding what felt right and what you think needed work. I am sure if it felt good the machine told you exactly that. Your actual head down time has to be a big part of what you have created.
    Chris, the manned and unmanned testing always go hand in hand: some ergonomics you can not test in the machine

    but once the 'basic design' is done, unmanned testing speeds up the design process a lot

    at the end however: manned testing can not test the extremes: cold, long, high ventilation rates, deep... and it is there that we want to know the performance of the unit: any unit, even the smallest home-build, can work in warm water, low ventilation rates, low CO2 input, shallow...
    but a combination of the opposite will separate the good units from the average or bad units!

    paul
    www.rEvo-rebreathers.com
    ...."Yes you have to pre-breathe to activate the scrubber sorb, anyone who says different doesn't know what they are talking about!"...
    .... to get more accurate CO2 injection in the breathing machine we put 2 mass flow controllers in series ...
    .... The noise is a few tens of nano-volts, so DL were able to reduce the output voltage ...
    .... radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
    .... the earth is flat and ...

  3. #43
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    "So, please tell me what is the purpose of paying tens of thousands of € to put the Pelagian through tests that it is not going to pass after all, due to it not being a eCCR or having an auto-bailout function. In my opinion, that would be a waste of money.

    If it was just a test to measure the WOB in certain positions and endurance of the scrubber, then fine. Of course the manufacturer should have a representative at the location to set up the unit and monitor the tests, so we don´t get new tests with weird results.

    Sure you could be a professor in whatever, but I am a firm believer in common sense, and too many highly educated people have lost theirs in the process of getting their degree..."


    Hmmm so the reason not to test is that the machine would not pass ??

    Common sense has proabably killed more people than the black plague.

    Also please note that I have not mentioned a CE certification once in my past replies. I have only asked for some kind of third party testing. And that would not be a waste of money.

    "You really have got your knickers in a twist . Why don't we evaluate your argument. Firstly you sneer at what the users of unit have said (evaluate a rig its enough with a couple of "test dives" ) I do not think hundreds of logged dives is anything like your snide remarks suggest. As to cutting O2 cells . Grow up !!! the thread is only to screw them into a mount,look at the dozens of other cells on the market that have no threaded portion but same insides ,its only a container . You know for a lot of years people built and tested everything from rebreathers to ocean liners without a set of controlled conditions or control subjects. You are right I do not know anything about you or what you do.What I do know is that you have an arrogance of opinion on the subject of the Pelagian for somebody who has never used one, and from you last post you appear to want to shout louder than any other kid on the block."

    I dont wear knickers

    God try, but instead of just saying I am wrong come up with some arguments. Because just saying I am wrong dont cut it.

    Yes but we live in the year 2011 not in begining of the nineteenth century and the world have moved forward.


    "Andy has most likely not commented on his product as busy building more at Rebreather Lab trying to keep up with orders..."

    Guys this is like shooting fish in a barrel...

    I guess the factories are going at full production .

    The new kid on the block

  4. #44
    Dive Aqaba Owner Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    After some sensible and enlightening comments by Paul we are now back to a mudslinging childish argument instead of a sensible discussion!

    I will ask a couple of questions that may be answered by anyone...


    1) Does CE certification only allow for eCCRs or does it also allow for mCCRs

    2) What other third party testing is available

    CE certification is useful if using units, training and buying and selling them in the EU. Third party testing is now required by PADI for their future recreational and technical CCR courses. RESA was formed last year in order to address many of these problems.
    Last edited by Rod Abbotson; 26th April 2011 at 06:34. Reason: typo error

  5. #45
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Very interesting that after 11 posts,
    and only nine of those visible,
    all the visible ones is about the Pelagian that you have absolutely no experience with, and not a single post mentions the JJ-CCR that you supposedly have taken a course on, and supposedly have on order...

  6. #46
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Abbotson  View Original Post
    After some sensible and enlightening comments by Paul we are now back to a mudslinging childish argument instead of a sensible discussion!

    I will ask a couple of questions that may be answered by anyone...


    1) Does CE certification only allow for eCCRs or does it also allow for mCCRs

    2) What other third party testing is available

    CE certification is useful if using units, training and buying and selling them in the EU. Third party testing is now required by PADI for their future recreational and technical CCR courses. RESA was formed last year in order to address many of these problems.
    1 CE certification can be for all types of rebreathers, not only eCCR
    the only difference is that you do it according a technical file, similar to the EN14143/2003, but excluding some paragraphs, and that technical file must be approved by a 'Notified Body' (so not just anyone)
    the new to come out version of EN14143 will include the specifics for mCCR in the standard itself

    2) any lab can do third party testing: you go to ANSTI, or DEKRA, or similar labs, and they do all testing on your breather, whatever you want, testing towards CE, or US navy, whatever, and give you the results
    and you can show those results to anyone you want, use them for your own research, whatever
    this is what we did in the beginning on the rEvo II: we knew it could not get CE, but we had to learn how it behaved, so we could develop new things

    paul
    www.rEvo-rebreathers.com
    ...."Yes you have to pre-breathe to activate the scrubber sorb, anyone who says different doesn't know what they are talking about!"...
    .... to get more accurate CO2 injection in the breathing machine we put 2 mass flow controllers in series ...
    .... The noise is a few tens of nano-volts, so DL were able to reduce the output voltage ...
    .... radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
    .... the earth is flat and ...

  7. #47
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by paulraymaekers  View Original Post
    1 CE certification can be for all types of rebreathers, not only eCCR
    the only difference is that you do it according a technical file, similar to the EN14143/2003, but excluding some paragraphs, and that technical file must be approved by a 'Notified Body' (so not just anyone)
    the new to come out version of EN14143 will include the specifics for mCCR in the standard itself

    2) any lab can do third party testing: you go to ANSTI, or DEKRA, or similar labs, and they do all testing on your breather, whatever you want, testing towards CE, or US navy, whatever, and give you the results
    and you can show those results to anyone you want, use them for your own research, whatever
    this is what we did in the beginning on the rEvo II: we knew it could not get CE, but we had to learn how it behaved, so we could develop new things

    paul
    And we thank you for your devotion to improve your products and your selfless contribution to the rebreather community to improve the general knowledge of those diving rebreathers.

    Sorry for the hijack. Back to subject...........


    Best regards,
    SS

  8. #48
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    “After some sensible and enlightening comments by Paul we are now back to a mudslinging childish argument instead of a sensible discussion!

    I will ask a couple of questions that may be answered by anyone...

    1) Does CE certification only allow for eCCRs or does it also allow for mCCRs

    2) What other third party testing is available

    CE certification is useful if using units, training and buying and selling them in the EU. Third party testing is now required by PADI for their future recreational and technical CCR courses. RESA was formed last year in order to address many of these problems.”


    Who is mudslinging ?? You have not once tried to argue with facts or real arguments.

    I am not going to make myself the spokesperson for paulraymaekers but is he not saying exactly what I have been saying all along ?

    *testing in a controlled enviroment is the only way to know how your machine behaves during extreme conditions.
    *to do a number of dives is no substitute for proper testing
    *Ce certification is one thing and could only be achived by third party testing but a third party testing does not need to be followed by a CE cert.

    Then he ads that
    Proper testing is a good tool for improvement


    “Very interesting that after 11 posts,
    and only nine of those visible,
    all the visible ones is about the Pelagian that you have absolutely no experience with, and not a single post mentions the JJ-CCR that you supposedly have taken a course on, and supposedly have on order...”

    What do you mean by “only nine visible”

    Yes I have ordered a JJ .
    I thought this “thread” was about “New CCR training agency for Pelgian DCCR”
    Not to buy a pelgian was a very active choice from my part. And was only done after a lot of research where as, I have told you before, I did not do a try dive.

    And again here is the original statement/question I made;
    Why should a well renowned education org choose a rig that has no testing whatsoever?


    The new kid on the block

  9. #49
    RBW Member Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Atlas !!!!! NO KNICKERS I think this is like

  10. #50
    RBW Member Chii is on a distinguished road Chii is on a distinguished road Chii's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by izze  View Original Post
    The OP really must be some sort of forum troll to post that. Granted it's a small agency but I doubt there is anyone involved in technical diving in Sweden that doesn't know about the founder and you'll be hard pressed to find anyone with a bad thing to say about the quality of education.
    Why jump to the conclusion that i have anything bad to say. I think it is very interesting that Swedtech makes the leap towards RB diving and wish the founder all the best. The OP is mearly a message to the RB community that there is a new bloke in town.

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