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Thread: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

  1. #31
    RBW Member jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by peter  View Original Post
    I must say i find it strange that Swedtech Diving..
    (Which have a very good reputation in Sweden and who has signed an agreement with the Swedish authorities to comply with CE requirements for diving training. )

    Begins to offer training on a rebreather that is not CE approved or not is known to work to get the CE approval in future..

    As most of us know It is illegal to import, sell and train on the non CE approved Rebreather in EU.

    BR
    Peter
    Maybe, or they may have found a loophole.

    Like in Norway, a diving instructor is not allowed to dive deeper than 30m. So, what to do on a PADI Deep Diver course?

    Be an instructor to 30m, and continue as a buddy to 40m...

  2. #32
    Banned Atlas is infamous around these parts Atlas is infamous around these parts Atlas is infamous around these parts Atlas is infamous around these parts Atlas is infamous around these parts Atlas's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Chris read again what you just wrote and pay attention the the word "critical" in the first sentence...........

    There are a lot of people here with a lot of more experience when it comes to Rebreather diving and especialy when it comes to pelgian diving i will grant you that.

    But obviously there are a lot of people here that lack the ability for critical thinking and don't have a clue what testing is about.

    And before you criticize me for that last sentence or find a new ridiculous excuse for lack of proper testing consider this.
    You know absolutely nothing about my background.
    For all you know i could be a professor specialising in scientific methodology.

  3. #33
    RBW Member jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold is a jewel in the rough jlovold's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas  View Original Post
    Chris read again what you just wrote and pay attention the the word "critical" in the first sentence...........

    There are a lot of people here with a lot of more experience when it comes to Rebreather diving and especialy when it comes to pelgian diving i will grant you that.

    But obviously there are a lot of people here that lack the ability for critical thinking and don't have a clue what testing is about.

    And before you criticize me for that last sentence or find a new ridiculous excuse for lack of proper testing consider this.
    You know absolutely nothing about my background.
    For all you know i could be a professor specialising in scientific methodology.
    So, please tell me what is the purpose of paying tens of thousands of € to put the Pelagian through tests that it is not going to pass after all, due to it not being a eCCR or having an auto-bailout function. In my opinion, that would be a waste of money.

    If it was just a test to measure the WOB in certain positions and endurance of the scrubber, then fine. Of course the manufacturer should have a representative at the location to set up the unit and monitor the tests, so we don´t get new tests with weird results.

    Sure you could be a professor in whatever, but I am a firm believer in common sense, and too many highly educated people have lost theirs in the process of getting their degree...
    Last edited by jlovold; 24th April 2011 at 14:34.

  4. #34
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    No I am not upset i only think it is strange that they could come to the conclusion that should use an untested machine. If it makes you feel better i would have thought the same thing if they had started to educate on a …..........................
    That is right I cant think of another machine that has so little testing done on it... Can you think of one ? And maybe there is a reason for this hmm

    So you think its enough to take that kind of decision based on a couple of dives ??? Ohhhh sorry i forgot that you think that to test and evaluate a rig its enough with a couple of "test dives"

    So now all of sudden its not a good idea to cut O2 cells ?? Have you changed your mind ? So you think that the manufactures think its a good idea that cut them so you cant claim the warranty ???? What kind of stupid argument is that

    Yes the motorcycle tube is very clever and all that, but you miss the point again..... Why come up with some fairytale that its because we have done a lot of tests to get the best trim and this form of CL is what we come up with ... They took what they thought was OK to use (nothing wrong about that) but don't give us this bullshit that is extensive development work behind it.

    "If your breathing is laboured and not improving at 100m, you should bail out. period".

    Ok but could you do the testing for me at a 100 m so i would know exactly how much laboured breathing and for how long before i should bail out ??

    Again you and your fellow disciples, in the church for kamikaze pilots, miss the point. Lets examine what you wrote ;

    "The machine have been tested by me and several others, and found perfectly good."

    No you have not tested it in any way!
    To test something you need to set up test criteria and examine very thoroughly what you want to achieve with the test. The test also need to be repeatable i.e. somebody else should be able to read your test description and then perform the same test and replicate the same results over and over again until hell freezes over to be able to pull any conclusions from your test whatsoever.
    To make this possible you need to eliminate or at least control as many variables as possible. And then you need to pull all the results together and make a conclusion.

    And you can call all the dives done with a pelgian so far whatever you want but "a test" is not one of them.

    "Machine-testing is okay, but only tells you how the machine works under extreme conditions"
    And that is exactly what you want!! You want to know how it will perform during those extreme conditions! And you probably don't want to find out where the limits are by yourself

    "And it cost money"
    There is no such thing as a free lunch my friend .... Why do you think all the other makers of Rebreather think it is important to test their machines with a third party ???? Because they like spending money

    But, I guess if it was machine tested, it still would not be good enough, because it is not shiny or high-tech enough."

    And that last stuff is probably from somebody who has told you that as soon as as someone have something critical to say about the pelgian its because they like shiny and high tech stuff. And that is also a lot of bullshit !

    But my o my what are you saying ???

    BMCL ????????????????????????????????????
    That must be like swearing in church ......
    I thought that the very very special design of the pelgian CL was so superior to anything else on the market and gave you such a fantastic trim and now you want to change to BMCL

  5. #35
    Nick Tessier music for deco is just really nice music for deco is just really nice music for deco is just really nice music for deco is just really nice music for deco is just really nice music for deco is just really nice music for deco is just really nice music for deco is just really nice music for deco is just really nice music for deco's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Christ who’s cat pissed on your sorb ?

    I go with the argument that you know the thing is not that well tested so treat it very very very carefully (to be honest think that all RBs should be treated the same and you will live a lot longer ) But then have built my own silver death box :) and yes it does have a needle valve

    Nick

  6. #36
    RBW Member Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy is a glorious beacon of light Chris Kennedy's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Atlas  View Original Post
    No I am not upset i only think it is strange that they could come to the conclusion that should use an untested machine. If it makes you feel better i would have thought the same thing if they had started to educate on a …..........................
    That is right I cant think of another machine that has so little testing done on it... Can you think of one ? And maybe there is a reason for this hmm

    So you think its enough to take that kind of decision based on a couple of dives ??? Ohhhh sorry i forgot that you think that to test and evaluate a rig its enough with a couple of "test dives"

    So now all of sudden its not a good idea to cut O2 cells ?? Have you changed your mind ? So you think that the manufactures think its a good idea that cut them so you cant claim the warranty ???? What kind of stupid argument is that

    Yes the motorcycle tube is very clever and all that, but you miss the point again..... Why come up with some fairytale that its because we have done a lot of tests to get the best trim and this form of CL is what we come up with ... They took what they thought was OK to use (nothing wrong about that) but don't give us this bullshit that is extensive development work behind it.

    "If your breathing is laboured and not improving at 100m, you should bail out. period".

    Ok but could you do the testing for me at a 100 m so i would know exactly how much laboured breathing and for how long before i should bail out ??

    Again you and your fellow disciples, in the church for kamikaze pilots, miss the point. Lets examine what you wrote ;

    "The machine have been tested by me and several others, and found perfectly good."

    No you have not tested it in any way!
    To test something you need to set up test criteria and examine very thoroughly what you want to achieve with the test. The test also need to be repeatable i.e. somebody else should be able to read your test description and then perform the same test and replicate the same results over and over again until hell freezes over to be able to pull any conclusions from your test whatsoever.
    To make this possible you need to eliminate or at least control as many variables as possible. And then you need to pull all the results together and make a conclusion.

    And you can call all the dives done with a pelgian so far whatever you want but "a test" is not one of them.

    "Machine-testing is okay, but only tells you how the machine works under extreme conditions"
    And that is exactly what you want!! You want to know how it will perform during those extreme conditions! And you probably don't want to find out where the limits are by yourself

    "And it cost money"
    There is no such thing as a free lunch my friend .... Why do you think all the other makers of Rebreather think it is important to test their machines with a third party ???? Because they like spending money

    But, I guess if it was machine tested, it still would not be good enough, because it is not shiny or high-tech enough."

    And that last stuff is probably from somebody who has told you that as soon as as someone have something critical to say about the pelgian its because they like shiny and high tech stuff. And that is also a lot of bullshit !

    But my o my what are you saying ???

    BMCL ????????????????????????????????????
    That must be like swearing in church ......
    I thought that the very very special design of the pelgian CL was so superior to anything else on the market and gave you such a fantastic trim and now you want to change to BMCL
    You really have got your knickers in a twist . Why don't we evaluate your argument. Firstly you sneer at what the users of unit have said (evaluate a rig its enough with a couple of "test dives" ) I do not think hundreds of logged dives is anything like your snide remarks suggest. As to cutting O2 cells . Grow up !!! the thread is only to screw them into a mount,look at the dozens of other cells on the market that have no threaded portion but same insides ,its only a container . You know for a lot of years people built and tested everything from rebreathers to ocean liners without a set of controlled conditions or control subjects. You are right I do not know anything about you or what you do.What I do know is that you have an arrogance of opinion on the subject of the Pelagian for somebody who has never used one, and from you last post you appear to want to shout louder than any other kid on the block.
    Last edited by Chris Kennedy; 24th April 2011 at 18:26.

  7. #37
    Dive Aqaba Owner Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    My this is getting fun,
    Non of the rebreathers manufactured in the US had third party testing until just recently when it was suggested by Mark Caney from PADI that they should get together a come up with something if they wanted their machines to be on the PADI curriculum.

    So far they havent really done this...the Meg has just recently been pushed thru CE approval only with APECs 2.7 not with Sheawater or the Copis...which iare both apparently undergoing CE testing...hats off to ISC

    This is only done to expand their market into Europe.

    How many dives were done on Megs before this..

    What about the popular KISS rebreather?? by Jetsam


    Andy has most likely not commented on his product as busy building more at Rebreather Lab trying to keep up with orders...

    Rod

  8. #38
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Abbotson  View Original Post
    My this is getting fun,
    Non of the rebreathers manufactured in the US had third party testing until just recently when it was suggested by Mark Caney from PADI that they should get together a come up with something if they wanted their machines to be on the PADI curriculum.

    So far they havent really done this...the Meg has just recently been pushed thru CE approval only with APECs 2.7 not with Sheawater or the Copis...which iare both apparently undergoing CE testing...hats off to ISC

    This is only done to expand their market into Europe.

    How many dives were done on Megs before this..

    What about the popular KISS rebreather?? by Jetsam


    Andy has most likely not commented on his product as busy building more at Rebreather Lab trying to keep up with orders...

    Rod
    Rod, only for correction, I think ISC has been on third party / CE testing for.. more then 3..4 years at least now, so long long before PADI was at the CCR horizon.

    Shearwater has CE approval on their computers

    Companies do really see the value of third party testing!

    paul
    www.rEvo-rebreathers.com
    ...."Yes you have to pre-breathe to activate the scrubber sorb, anyone who says different doesn't know what they are talking about!"...
    .... to get more accurate CO2 injection in the breathing machine we put 2 mass flow controllers in series ...
    .... The noise is a few tens of nano-volts, so DL were able to reduce the output voltage ...
    .... radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
    .... the earth is flat and ...

  9. #39
    Dive Aqaba Owner Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson is a glorious beacon of light Rod Abbotson's Avatar
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Hi Paul,
    Thanks for that correction, I was going on the recent announcement here that the unit with Apec2.7 had finally finished testing...this is an interesting point as how long does this process take...how long did it take with your rEVOs...looking forward to trying a mark 3 this summer as have a guest coming over from Belgium with one for three weeks CCR diving with me.

    cheers
    Rod

  10. #40
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    Re: New CCR training agency for Pelagian DCCR

    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Abbotson  View Original Post
    Hi Paul,
    Thanks for that correction, I was going on the recent announcement here that the unit with Apec2.7 had finally finished testing...this is an interesting point as how long does this process take...how long did it take with your rEVOs...looking forward to trying a mark 3 this summer as have a guest coming over from Belgium with one for three weeks CCR diving with me.

    cheers
    Rod
    hi Rod,

    the time to get CE done is different from only third party testing: the idea is that if you do third party/machine testing, that you learn from it and adapt your product to improve it, so that at the end it can meet some standards
    manned testing can not do that, as you can never repeat the test exactly the same way, when you made a small modification to the rig, and want to see the influence of only that changement/improvement: so research, machine testing, modifying, machine testing again and get feed-back from form the modification, and so on and on...
    it took us around 2 years from the start of third party testing, then installing our own test lab, till we got CE on the impoved/modified unit (going from the rEvo II to the rEvo III)

    it is an expencive proces, but it was clearly worth it!

    paul
    www.rEvo-rebreathers.com
    ...."Yes you have to pre-breathe to activate the scrubber sorb, anyone who says different doesn't know what they are talking about!"...
    .... to get more accurate CO2 injection in the breathing machine we put 2 mass flow controllers in series ...
    .... The noise is a few tens of nano-volts, so DL were able to reduce the output voltage ...
    .... radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
    .... the earth is flat and ...

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