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Thread: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

  1. #11
    Dive Deep and Dive Long Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by gtzavelas  View Original Post
    would also be very interested in replies to this question as we have 3 Sierras and are at the same situation

    at an earlier RBW post was mentioned a similar conversion using this:
    24V 30AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Pack
    My buddy is in Taiwan right now and I think the electronics show is still going on their I asked him to find LED's for the RV for me I forgot about battery packs. That is a great price.

  2. #12
    Tor Aadnevik Totto is an unknown quantity at this point Totto's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Loanwolf  View Original Post
    As long as you buy good parts especially control boards it is a fairly easy project. I have made several now and know a few others that have done their own as well. I prefer the LiFE cells myself. they do not have the capacity of a Li-Poly but they have twice the cycles and are much more forgiving. i.e. are not known to catch fire or explode as easily.

    +1 for LIFE. They are safe and you can charge the hell out of them. I have used them im my cuda now for almost two years and they are working great.

    After an incident where I almost set fire to the boat of a friend of mine, Iím very skeptic to Li-Ion batteries. I think it was due to a water leak to a video light canister. It burst into flames on the boat on the way back from the dive.

    Tor

  3. #13
    Dive Deep and Dive Long Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by gtzavelas  View Original Post
    would also be very interested in replies to this question as we have 3 Sierras and are at the same situation

    at an earlier RBW post was mentioned a similar conversion using this:
    24V 30AH V2.5 LiFePO4 Battery Pack
    The 30AH is a little heavy and too big for a standard Sierra but would work in a long body just fine.

  4. #14
    Tobin George cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Totto  View Original Post
    +1 for LIFE. They are safe and you can charge the hell out of them. I have used them im my cuda now for almost two years and they are working great.

    After an incident where I almost set fire to the boat of a friend of mine, Iím very skeptic to Li-Ion batteries. I think it was due to a water leak to a video light canister. It burst into flames on the boat on the way back from the dive.

    Tor
    Water intrusion is unlikely to cause a fire.

    SOP for a runaway Li-Ion pack is immersion in salt water......

    Lithium Ion battery do not contain metallic lithium.

    Tobin

  5. #15
    Tobin George cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Loanwolf  View Original Post
    I was having to replace my NiMh just over every 6 months or so. they would start to drop off fast after 500 cycles. the LiFE set I have over 1500hrs and is still going strong. If I have to buy a new $2400 battery every few years I am not going to go down that road myself. are you going to get 500, 1000, or 2000 cycles out of them?
    Greg,

    Now you are comparing NiMh with LiFE. In your first post you claimed LiFe offered better cycle life than Li-Ion.

    Which is it?

    I happen to have sn 0001 Lithium Sierra pack that's over 5 years old with 100's of cycles. Still tests above 90% of original capacity. That's using Li-Cobalt cylindrical cells.

    What's your long term experience with Li-Cobalt batteries in a scooter?

    Tobin

  6. #16
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer4545  View Original Post
    I am considering changing my Sierra std Nicad batteries to Lithium. Has anyone already done this and like to share your experiences.
    Best thing I've ever done to my scooters.

    The increase in run time is about 4X in my experience. This is lugging me, my CCR and multiple stages around my corner of the Pacific. YMMV.

    The longest run I've done is a little over 3 miles, and that dive returned about 45AH to the batteries when put back on the charger.

    Yesterday a friend and I did a dive where we were on the trigger for about 75 min solid (slow cruise), CCRs and carrying two stages each and returned 16AH to the batteries.

    No more opening the scooter on a rocking dive boat to change the battery between dives. The Sierra configured like this is an amazing shore diving tool as well.

    Had one battery pack give up the ghost on me, and Tobin replaced it within a day. That time period would probably have been shorter if I lived a little closer

  7. #17
    Dive Deep and Dive Long Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by cool_hardware52  View Original Post
    Greg,

    Now you are comparing NiMh with LiFE. In your first post you claimed LiFe offered better cycle life than Li-Ion.

    Which is it?

    I happen to have sn 0001 Lithium Sierra pack that's over 5 years old with 100's of cycles. Still tests above 90% of original capacity. That's using Li-Cobalt cylindrical cells.

    What's your long term experience with Li-Cobalt batteries in a scooter?

    Tobin
    I have not used Li-Poly in a DPV that is why I am asking you what do you expect to get out of them for life cycles? I have used NiMh (start to fall off at around 500 cycles, cell manufacture says 1000) and LiFE (that I have over 1000 cycles on and are going strong, Cell Manufacture says 2000 cycles) in my DPV. I paid just under $400 for a 24volt 24ah LiFE pack and charger. I have however been involved in comparison testing Lead Acid, NiMh, Li-Poly(several different types), and LiFE with Panasonic for Road Scooter's in Japan and the LiFE got more life cycles and overall life of the battery with less care. We tested all kinds of diffident combination for the scooter's that are being imported into Japan from China. Yes the LI-Poly have more capacity buy far. But that kind of became a moot point, in Japan we are not allowed to install them from the factory due to safety and environmental regulations. All we could use is lead acid, NiMh, or LiFE packs out the door.
    Last edited by Loanwolf; 25th March 2011 at 19:54.

  8. #18
    Tobin George cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Loanwolf  View Original Post
    I have not used Li-Poly in a DPV
    Neither have I. We use only Li-Ion Cylindrical cells. I've repeated this many many times.

    Tobin

  9. #19
    Dive Deep and Dive Long Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf is a jewel in the rough Loanwolf's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by cool_hardware52  View Original Post
    Neither have I. We use only Li-Ion Cylindrical cells. I've repeated this many many times.

    Tobin
    My bad Tobin sorry.

    But isn't Li-Poly a generic term for a Li-ion no matter what the composition is? Their are lots of different Li-Ion compositions. If I am using that wrong thanks for correcting me.

  10. #20
    Tobin George cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52 is a splendid one to behold cool_hardware52's Avatar
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    Re: Changing to Lithuim Scooter Batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Loanwolf  View Original Post
    I have not used Li-Poly in a DPV that is why I am asking you what do you expect to get out of them for life cycles?
    First, any discussion of cycle life without a clear definition of what constitutes a "cycle" is largely pointless.

    Many cells are marketed as being capable of huge numbers of cycles, and either the cycle is left undefined or a careful reading of the specs reveals a "cycle" is a shallow low current discharge followed by ideal charging etc. etc.

    In my 25+ years of selling rechargeable battery powered devices, using SLA's, NiCads, NiMh, and Li-Ion the single most important factor in predicting cycle life is depth of discharge.

    This is true regardless of chemistry.

    It should be pretty obvious that for a given application the higher the capacity of the battery the smaller % of discharge.

    Most consumer applications from cell phones to laptops to electric bikes are equipped with batteries that are barely capable of delivering adequate runtimes when brand new.

    Batteries cost money and add weight. Too small batteries virtually guarantee that they will be deep cycled. This is often followed by long term, low current, high temperature recharging. Reach over and touch the bottom of your lap top that's attached to the ac adapter. The battery will be *HOT*

    This leads to shortened battery life regardless of chemistry.

    OTOH if 2x or 3x the capacity that the typical user requires is furnished many good things result.

    The depth of discharge is vastly reduced, this increases the cycle life.

    *AND*

    The battery can suffer a substantial loss of capacity before the typical user needs to replace it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loanwolf  View Original Post
    I was having to replace my NiMh just over every 6 months or so. they would start to drop off fast after 500 cycles.
    Unlike you the typical user isn't going be able to get 500+ cycles in 6 months, that's almost 3 cycles per day 7 days a week. That's quite a pace. How do you get 3 dives and 3 recharges in 24 hours?

    Absolute cycle life for the typical user should be well down the list.

    If we assume 300 cycles (which I consider conservative) and 2 cycles a week replacement would be about every 6 years.

    Will battery technology be more advanced in 6 years? I certainly expect so.

    Given that both LiFe and Li-Co are both relatively immature technologies, and have essentially no real long term history of wide spread use in DPV's all anybody can really do at this point is regurgitate the propaganda that the cell makers provide.

    Much like LED's that claim 100,000 hours (11+ YEARS!) MTB failure, cells that are being sold today with claims of 1000 cycles are very unlikely to have been tested in large numbers to 1000 cycles.

    The both the LED's and the Cells would be obsolete before the testing was completed.

    What's the real cycle life of the batteries we build? The only honest answer is "Ask me in 10-15 years."

    Tobin

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